An old friend of mine, his 89 year old mother, his brother and wife, and another friend and wife all made the drive to Foxwoods yesterday for a day of gambling. No one came home with any money.
My poker day created my the worst loss since November of 2005. I ended up down $310 playing $4-$8 limit
And I did everything I could to win, even took along Louisiana Mudgriff Dan's 3 Musketeer lucky coin. Everyone touched the coin for luck. Everyone lost money. All eight of us. I' have written Dan for directions. We must have gotten some part of the coin ritual wrong. Perhaps he'll send over the correct page from the Aligator Brotherhood Lodge so my play in Tampa this week won't be so sour. Yep, I'm takin' the coin to Florida. It has no where to go but up.
Still, I loved the the game. There was the right mix of players at each of my sessions ( I cashed out to go to lunch) They might have sucked me out on a few hands except I was never in long enough to have that experience. Other players did get rivered with gut shot draws. I was generally beat long before the river. Also I had the habitual raise4r just two to my left. I hate when that happens unless I manage to get great cars and use him to squeeze the table, but I could never get a seat change.
Because there was enough of that loose play at the table, there was very little bluffing. Often hands would be over bet. One fellow holding Q-6 bet when I checked my pair of queens (Q-K) on a river that created a pair of 4's.
Once I got pushed off a pot. Three of us had held aces and called an A-J-J flop to the river. One ace bet and the second raised, so I folded mine. I lost my third of the pot. I'd do that again. But I would not have played like those guys. I would never have bet the ace after getting called to the river and certainly not raised with two guys in, one of them a tight player like me.
One woman took nearly half of my losses in two hands. I flopped a king high club flush and with 4 clubs by the flop, she raised my bet. I called. The dealer said, "Show me the ace" and she said she did not have it, but turned over pocket sevens for 4OAK.
On another hand her pocket 3's flopped a full house. I had trip tens. She never raised my bets, even on the river.
What was unnerving was she often called other players to the river with second and third best hands. But when I had cards, she had better cards.
There was no other great drama.
My son played a 30 home game tournament last night planned by an Albany Pokerpal meetup group. I'd have gone with him had I not gone to Foxwoods. He won $30 in third place.
It was a fine day. The almost 3 hour ride went very quickly with plenty of stories. It was not as slow as the bus by myself. One fellow bought lunch with his points for everyone. Waiting in line they met a small woman who spoke Italian and had a little exchange of thoughts in Italian. That was fun to hear.
I picked up a voucher on my points for a free bus ride within three months. And I learned that there is a poker rate of $59 at the Two Trees Inn, their cheapest motel like rooms. So I could take the bus up and back, getting both bonuses, and stay a couple nights. Sounds very good.
The new MGM was interesting to see. The machines were all very new and it felt pleasant enough. I am not a great fan of the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun expansions. They seem to be less interesting, more like huge lobbies in expensive hotels than casinos. And waling from MGM to Foxwoods (15 minute walk) was like walking through a mall with fewer shops. But the days of there being real themes seem over now even in Vegas where Wynn and Palazzo have that same dull feel to me.
I wonder what the Trump in AC will look like as a Margaritaville themed casino or what some of the newer building may look like in Vegas. The renovations I like best in Vegas are the old style neon added to the the East Freemont renovation. Downtown as a town of old neon seems delightful. I am bored with flat screen videos. I want to see more things like the Bellagio Conservatory, or the statues at Caesars, the fountain in front of Paris, Excalibur at night or the canals at the Venitian or the Stratosphere Tower. We have malls and 5 star hotel lobbies at home.
Tomorrow is Gregg's home game and then we go to Florida for 8 days. I'll play at Derby Lane dog track. Have to get my money back.
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
Wednesday, May 28, 2008
GREG'S GAME May 28
Boy, I really never thought I'd make this game. First, I was so sick this past week. When I stayed in bed on Monday with the oppressive sinus migraine on top of the head cold from hell, I gave up the hope of Greg's game. Then by Tuesday it had passed and the hope was back again, until late that night when a short in the hot water tank kicked out every circuit serviced by the generator, including the deep freezer.
So I expected to spend the day getting that fixed.
Instead, a plumber electrician came and just disconnected the faulty element so we can limp along with one element for a while until we decide just what we want to install.
It is a good thing it all happened before we went to Florida. A week without electricity to the freezer would cost us plenty in spoiled food.
So I managed to make Greg's game.
And perhaps I'll make the other social events leading up to going to Florida.
Greg's game was fun, but initially I lost regularly in all-in bets where I was beat on the river.
Peter took me down one time when he called a huge bet (semi bluff really) with only a pair against my 2 pair and caught an ace on the river. Bruce called me with a 3-4 of spades and went on to catch a 3-4 for two pair.
Peter also successfully bluffed me on a couple occasions. We tend on rare but delightful occasions to bluff each other with nothing at all and then show in order to add to the other's annoyance.
One all-in I made early in the game when I was not bluffing. Peter went all in holding two spades for a jack high space flush (ace and king on the board) and yes, I also had two spades and one of mine was the nut queen.
However, things went bad for me for the first couple hours. I was $80 down when the game turned around. At about that time Bill lost a terrible all=in bet. He went all in after flopping a straight. Peter called with two pair that never developed. Greg called with a gut shot and caught it on the river to end up with just a bit higher straight. Bill was pretty deflated and just called it a day and went home.
I had pushed him out of a hand earlier when he had top pair (jacks) but a very low kicker after the flop and my aggressive bet made him think I had more than I really did. Had he stayed in that hand, he would have made a good bit of money because he would have had 4 jacks against my eventual full house.
So he was understandably frustrated.
Without Bill in the game, I seemed to do better. I caught some fine cards, won some hands and by the end of the day I had $108 profit and Peter had $124.
No one else had any money.
Peter had only bought in once. I had recovered after 8 buy ins and gone on to win almost as much as Peter for the day
.
Half way through the game, Greg had racked up quite a pile of chips, but slowly they slipped away. At the end of the afternoon, Peter and I took all he had.
He bought in a few more times, and we took that too.
The "Hill boys" took home all the money lost by anyone that day. This was a great psychological break for me. I have been on a losing streak and dropped over $500 in my last half a dozen sessions; session after session had left me down money.
Now I am back trying to pull myself out of my lifetime hole and get in the black.
I think the saddest hand of the day came when we were down to just three of us. Greg slow played his straight flush in hearts, just waiting for someone to bet in to him. But with only three of us, it was overkill. There was not much for Greg to do except show us the rare random event, smile, rake in a few paltry chips and shuffle up.
I remembered how often this happens in casino games when the players get down to five. Good cards come. No money is bet. And there the casino takes perhaps a third of the pot.
Avoiding that scenario is top on my list of things to improve.
It is hard to do. In Vegas it is easier as there is a game down the street. but at Turning Stone it means finding something else to do.
One more game at Greg's before we go to Florida for those games. I hope I can make the adjustment to ten people when I hit the Tampa games. Helpful may be another visit to Foxwoods with Jerry and his Mom on Monday. Foxwoods sent me 10 more free points for every week in June. Each of these coupons pays for almost half a Yankee Trails bus trip. Foxwoods certainly does a better job of taking care of the poker players than Turning Stone. Also they still spread a 4-8 game which I like.
Bruce announced that he had made the final tournament at Turning Stone, getting blinded out of any money. He was pleased to have gotten that far. I guess he played for 4 or more hours. That is what discouraged me about tournaments. Good hard play and a little luck may get a player close to the money, but too often those quick escalating blinds make the last half hour a game entirely of luck.
Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Foxwoods May 20
Bill and I went up to Foxwoods on the Yankee Trails bus. I lost again in both the morning 2-4 and the afternoon 4-8 sessions. I played badly a few times, but most of the loss was just getting drained with cards I bet and folded.
In fact, two bad bets won me pots. In one I caught a straight, but failed to notice that it also created a spade flush. I bet and was raised. I groaned and called. The fellow thought he had a flush, but he had only one spade. Lucky. Then I stole one pot when I bet against one opponent but only had J-Q overcards. He tossed away two little pair. he turned them up. Luckily, I just asked if it were a fold. I think he was hoping to see what I had and then bet with them up if he had me beat. With no money coming, the dealer mucked his cards. He pushed me about whether I had him beat, but I stepped around the question, claiming that I was confused by his unorthodox fold.
This is the technigue that the brush used at the Palms and there I was beat and just folded when I saw that I was beat. But the brush did not want another bet. I should have bet from the beat position to see if I could force him out.
I had trip kings and was beat by a full house by a fellow who flopped trip sixes and slow played them with a raise on the river.
I had trip jacks and was raised on the turn. I reraised because I had the ace kicker. My opponent did not raise again so I figured he had no full house. The river was a 7. I bet and he reraised. My opponent had beat me with J-7 offsuit.
I was dealt only one pocket pair all afternoon. Just one: Pocket kings in the big blind. Everyone folded and the small blind asked to chop. That also was the only chop all afternoon at that table.
Well, the damages equaled $214, a huge single day loss for limit poker. This brings my lifetime average loss up higher than it has been since the great Turning Stone $278 win on March 18. Roughly, I am at break even for April/May.
I hope the Tampa poker goes better in June.
Bill did well because he went up to the craps table and the shooter hit a fine run. He left ahead.
Except for the losses, it was a fine day. Foxwoods is just a better room than Turning Stone. They now have a bad beat, but it is just $1500 and they fund it with no rake. The tables were always filled. In the morning the 2-4 was the tightest game I've seen there in all my visits and the pots were very small. We should have left and looked for another table. My afternoon table 4-8 was perfect. I even managed to grab a seat to the right of one of two habitual raisers and the left of another, so I had good position. Just bad cards. I played well in the afternoon.
Foxwoods also gives a jacket for a royal. I remembered the turkey hunter at Turning Stone talking the guy in to a hat that happened to be there because of the East Coast Tournament Players.
And they give me some free Myer's rum.
Turning Stone mails me only advertisement. Foxwoods sent me 10 free player's points in the mail for each week in May. With those I will have enough for a free bus voucher after my next visit.
Also, the bus bonus is better at Foxwoods. I hit the keno for $5. I bet Bill I would beat him on that and I did. So he had to leave the buffet tip. That buffet tip bet was the best bet I made all day.
The buffet included duck. It was not done in the way I best like, so that things are crispy, but it was good nonetheless as was the deep fried cod.
And Bill as always was a fine companion. The bus was only 2/3 filled and I sat next to him for some good stories, and then moved to my own open seat for a bit of a nap or for the movie on the way back. The American President.
I have certainly seen it before, but I forget them almost as soon as I see them. It set up many of the characters as well as the paced chatter for the show West Wing.
Across the aisle was Beverly Jones who I taught in 7-8 grade at Livingston many years ago. We had a fine visit. She remembered me and Jerry and many of the teachers. She said she is an auditor now for the state now and the English I taught helps her in her job. it was a kind thing to say. She married a Goodbee. I also taught some of his family.
In fact, two bad bets won me pots. In one I caught a straight, but failed to notice that it also created a spade flush. I bet and was raised. I groaned and called. The fellow thought he had a flush, but he had only one spade. Lucky. Then I stole one pot when I bet against one opponent but only had J-Q overcards. He tossed away two little pair. he turned them up. Luckily, I just asked if it were a fold. I think he was hoping to see what I had and then bet with them up if he had me beat. With no money coming, the dealer mucked his cards. He pushed me about whether I had him beat, but I stepped around the question, claiming that I was confused by his unorthodox fold.
This is the technigue that the brush used at the Palms and there I was beat and just folded when I saw that I was beat. But the brush did not want another bet. I should have bet from the beat position to see if I could force him out.
I had trip kings and was beat by a full house by a fellow who flopped trip sixes and slow played them with a raise on the river.
I had trip jacks and was raised on the turn. I reraised because I had the ace kicker. My opponent did not raise again so I figured he had no full house. The river was a 7. I bet and he reraised. My opponent had beat me with J-7 offsuit.
I was dealt only one pocket pair all afternoon. Just one: Pocket kings in the big blind. Everyone folded and the small blind asked to chop. That also was the only chop all afternoon at that table.
Well, the damages equaled $214, a huge single day loss for limit poker. This brings my lifetime average loss up higher than it has been since the great Turning Stone $278 win on March 18. Roughly, I am at break even for April/May.
I hope the Tampa poker goes better in June.
Bill did well because he went up to the craps table and the shooter hit a fine run. He left ahead.
Except for the losses, it was a fine day. Foxwoods is just a better room than Turning Stone. They now have a bad beat, but it is just $1500 and they fund it with no rake. The tables were always filled. In the morning the 2-4 was the tightest game I've seen there in all my visits and the pots were very small. We should have left and looked for another table. My afternoon table 4-8 was perfect. I even managed to grab a seat to the right of one of two habitual raisers and the left of another, so I had good position. Just bad cards. I played well in the afternoon.
Foxwoods also gives a jacket for a royal. I remembered the turkey hunter at Turning Stone talking the guy in to a hat that happened to be there because of the East Coast Tournament Players.
And they give me some free Myer's rum.
Turning Stone mails me only advertisement. Foxwoods sent me 10 free player's points in the mail for each week in May. With those I will have enough for a free bus voucher after my next visit.
Also, the bus bonus is better at Foxwoods. I hit the keno for $5. I bet Bill I would beat him on that and I did. So he had to leave the buffet tip. That buffet tip bet was the best bet I made all day.
The buffet included duck. It was not done in the way I best like, so that things are crispy, but it was good nonetheless as was the deep fried cod.
And Bill as always was a fine companion. The bus was only 2/3 filled and I sat next to him for some good stories, and then moved to my own open seat for a bit of a nap or for the movie on the way back. The American President.
I have certainly seen it before, but I forget them almost as soon as I see them. It set up many of the characters as well as the paced chatter for the show West Wing.
Across the aisle was Beverly Jones who I taught in 7-8 grade at Livingston many years ago. We had a fine visit. She remembered me and Jerry and many of the teachers. She said she is an auditor now for the state now and the English I taught helps her in her job. it was a kind thing to say. She married a Goodbee. I also taught some of his family.
Thursday, May 15, 2008
Greg's Guys and their Game
It was my first day out of the house in many days. I was tired. But I think I played well enough.
Peter, Jen and I went to the Dragon Buffet for lunch.
She and the baby seem well. She started maternity clothers.
Then Peter and I joined Phil, Bruce, Bill and Greg for a few hours of exciting poker.
I caught so many second best hands that it was not funny.
I got annoyed.
But once I had bought in $10 at a time for a record $110, my luck turned and I made some back.
My 4-5 suited yielded 4 fives with Bruce going all in on his river full house.
Other hands held up better. I ended up $64 behind.
Greg on two buy ins at one point had three racks of chips. He is hard to beat.
Peter's game was all over the charts. He is getting pretty aggressive. We now have two Gregs at the table. He won a good bit, lost it all back, and then recouped his losses.
It was a good day, but it did tire me out. I was in bed by 8 and slept until 8. Never had anything quite like this.
Bill and I are off to Foxwoods next week Tuesday on Yankee Trails. Bruce is off the Turning Stone. Greg and Ann head to Foxwoods on Wednesday. There will be some gambling stories to tell at our next game.
Peter, Jen and I went to the Dragon Buffet for lunch.
She and the baby seem well. She started maternity clothers.
Then Peter and I joined Phil, Bruce, Bill and Greg for a few hours of exciting poker.
I caught so many second best hands that it was not funny.
I got annoyed.
But once I had bought in $10 at a time for a record $110, my luck turned and I made some back.
My 4-5 suited yielded 4 fives with Bruce going all in on his river full house.
Other hands held up better. I ended up $64 behind.
Greg on two buy ins at one point had three racks of chips. He is hard to beat.
Peter's game was all over the charts. He is getting pretty aggressive. We now have two Gregs at the table. He won a good bit, lost it all back, and then recouped his losses.
It was a good day, but it did tire me out. I was in bed by 8 and slept until 8. Never had anything quite like this.
Bill and I are off to Foxwoods next week Tuesday on Yankee Trails. Bruce is off the Turning Stone. Greg and Ann head to Foxwoods on Wednesday. There will be some gambling stories to tell at our next game.
Monday, May 12, 2008
Turning Stone May 8
I stayed overnight at the Inn for the poker rate of $55 which is very good. Elizabeth took me up on her way to Rochester and my old Buffalo buddy Gary and family picked me up on his way to visit me the following day. We ate a buffet before heading out and I showed them the casino.
Early in the morning I had a fine hour long swim in the pool. I do like that.
However, I did not win. In fact, I lost the $267 right to the dollar that I had won earlier in the week at Turning Stone with Bill and Slink and at Greg's game. I played the higher level limit game 5-10, and just had too many second best cards. The worst was pocket aces that made trips on the flop. I bet them even then, but a fellow drew out on me for a straight on the turn and I did not get the Full House on the river.
The second morning I was up over a hundred for a while just in the two- four game but lost a good bit of it back.
So I came home down $202 for the those two days and up just $65 for the week.
I learned that late night at TS is nothing like Vegas. Perhaps the place fills up on weekends, but it was dead on this Thursday. I ended up playing tight guys with 7 or less and watched the rake eat us all up.
I won't do that again.
If I go over night, it will be a weekend and if I can't play a full table, I'll cash out and go to Rome for a few drinks.
Turning Stone also serves no alcohol, but I bring the playing card themed flask nephew Chris game me for my birthday with Myers rum in it and mix it with the free cokes they serve. I brought most of the rum home this trip. Just felt more like coffee.
I met one guy from Philly who was up turkey hunting and told me about an arrow that neatly slices the heads off turkeys, but only bounces off of them if it hits their bodies. Very sporting. The archer must have Robin hood accuracy and there are no wounded birds getting lost in the brush.
Now if I could get on for my fishing pole I'd catch fish and have some of the job of the cleaning done too.
Next week I think Bill and I are going to Foxwoods for a day of poker. I have done so well there. I hope that success is repeated.
Early in the morning I had a fine hour long swim in the pool. I do like that.
However, I did not win. In fact, I lost the $267 right to the dollar that I had won earlier in the week at Turning Stone with Bill and Slink and at Greg's game. I played the higher level limit game 5-10, and just had too many second best cards. The worst was pocket aces that made trips on the flop. I bet them even then, but a fellow drew out on me for a straight on the turn and I did not get the Full House on the river.
The second morning I was up over a hundred for a while just in the two- four game but lost a good bit of it back.
So I came home down $202 for the those two days and up just $65 for the week.
I learned that late night at TS is nothing like Vegas. Perhaps the place fills up on weekends, but it was dead on this Thursday. I ended up playing tight guys with 7 or less and watched the rake eat us all up.
I won't do that again.
If I go over night, it will be a weekend and if I can't play a full table, I'll cash out and go to Rome for a few drinks.
Turning Stone also serves no alcohol, but I bring the playing card themed flask nephew Chris game me for my birthday with Myers rum in it and mix it with the free cokes they serve. I brought most of the rum home this trip. Just felt more like coffee.
I met one guy from Philly who was up turkey hunting and told me about an arrow that neatly slices the heads off turkeys, but only bounces off of them if it hits their bodies. Very sporting. The archer must have Robin hood accuracy and there are no wounded birds getting lost in the brush.
Now if I could get on for my fishing pole I'd catch fish and have some of the job of the cleaning done too.
Next week I think Bill and I are going to Foxwoods for a day of poker. I have done so well there. I hope that success is repeated.
Sunday, April 13, 2008
Game at Burden Lake April 12
Greg suggested we play one more time before I head off to Vegas. So I set up a last minute game here at the house. We used the new table and it worked so great. In its small and round stage, the card playing was so much easier.
Most could not come, but Charlie from
Troy showed up with presents, a fine large rain jacket that was an Orleans tournament prize and a POV book that has not been used. I can put both to good use and circulate the POV back to Mudgriff Dan and Lucky Pete for their trip in June.
Greg and I played head to head for a while. I was fresh from a nap and it seemed that I had a fine sense of the game, was reading Greg well, and playing at my best. I got great cards too, but beyond just luck I felt like I had the game figured out. This was very satisfying because this head to head game with Greg has been one of the toughest games to learn to beat. I gave up once in order to keep my bankroll safe for Vegas. It seemed Greg won no matter what I did. Things are different now. In the first session I cleaned him of $89.
Then Charlie came and the game changed for me. I had great trouble switching up. By then I had gotten pretty tired too. So I lost back all my winnings and was just about even with Greg holding most of the chips. Then two hands before the end of the game, the board flopped A-A-K when I had a good king, the turn came A and Greg called my all in with his pocket queens. My Aces over kings took back all the money in one hand. Greg lost his few leftover chips to Charley in the next hand, and that was that.
So I ended $90 ahead with both Greg and Charley down.
Charley however had an amazing streak of wins. He did not bring much money to play with and was down to just 4 chips. then it seemed he could not be beat and he built his chip stack up very high before losing a bit of it back. So rarely does someone who is so short stacked manage to climb back, but as they say, "a chip and a chair."
Here are the things I learned:
I need to watch playing poker when I am tired. Whatever subconscious dance is going on in my brain slows way down when I get tired. I can play the 2-4 no thinking game and perhaps being tired gives me a bit of extra patience, but I can't play an games where there is bluffing or reading opponents. The other week this happened at Greg's and I lost.
I may be ready to play a little no limit. I know that these games are not anything like a Vegas table with 9-10 players, but still I seem to get some of the plays. I am not up to where I saw Slink was playing here at home last time, but I might be at entry level. At least I hope I am. Perhaps I'll try to apply some of the sense of the game here to the game in Vegas and find that I am outclassed in every game.
I like small games here and at Greg's better than the 8 person games. This game did not require the preparation or cleanup as when we take over the entire house. Nothing needed to be moved. I enjoyed not having to drive home tired too.
Banking takes away my concentration on the game. I am slow to bank and there is pressure from players to speed up the game rather than help in watching my counting and money management. In Vegas I will enjoy not having to think much about that in Vegas. I also will enjoy not having to constantly monitor the game for mistakes in dealing, reading, betting. Nice to just sit and sip rum and think only about the poker.
I have learned a good bit more that I won't post here. Greg tries hard to avoid reading my posts and e-mails, but I am not going to reveal the few things I have learned to do against him just the same. It is enough to have a few of his larger bills to buy into my first poker game, probably at Sam's town.
Most could not come, but Charlie from
Troy showed up with presents, a fine large rain jacket that was an Orleans tournament prize and a POV book that has not been used. I can put both to good use and circulate the POV back to Mudgriff Dan and Lucky Pete for their trip in June.
Greg and I played head to head for a while. I was fresh from a nap and it seemed that I had a fine sense of the game, was reading Greg well, and playing at my best. I got great cards too, but beyond just luck I felt like I had the game figured out. This was very satisfying because this head to head game with Greg has been one of the toughest games to learn to beat. I gave up once in order to keep my bankroll safe for Vegas. It seemed Greg won no matter what I did. Things are different now. In the first session I cleaned him of $89.
Then Charlie came and the game changed for me. I had great trouble switching up. By then I had gotten pretty tired too. So I lost back all my winnings and was just about even with Greg holding most of the chips. Then two hands before the end of the game, the board flopped A-A-K when I had a good king, the turn came A and Greg called my all in with his pocket queens. My Aces over kings took back all the money in one hand. Greg lost his few leftover chips to Charley in the next hand, and that was that.
So I ended $90 ahead with both Greg and Charley down.
Charley however had an amazing streak of wins. He did not bring much money to play with and was down to just 4 chips. then it seemed he could not be beat and he built his chip stack up very high before losing a bit of it back. So rarely does someone who is so short stacked manage to climb back, but as they say, "a chip and a chair."
Here are the things I learned:
I need to watch playing poker when I am tired. Whatever subconscious dance is going on in my brain slows way down when I get tired. I can play the 2-4 no thinking game and perhaps being tired gives me a bit of extra patience, but I can't play an games where there is bluffing or reading opponents. The other week this happened at Greg's and I lost.
I may be ready to play a little no limit. I know that these games are not anything like a Vegas table with 9-10 players, but still I seem to get some of the plays. I am not up to where I saw Slink was playing here at home last time, but I might be at entry level. At least I hope I am. Perhaps I'll try to apply some of the sense of the game here to the game in Vegas and find that I am outclassed in every game.
I like small games here and at Greg's better than the 8 person games. This game did not require the preparation or cleanup as when we take over the entire house. Nothing needed to be moved. I enjoyed not having to drive home tired too.
Banking takes away my concentration on the game. I am slow to bank and there is pressure from players to speed up the game rather than help in watching my counting and money management. In Vegas I will enjoy not having to think much about that in Vegas. I also will enjoy not having to constantly monitor the game for mistakes in dealing, reading, betting. Nice to just sit and sip rum and think only about the poker.
I have learned a good bit more that I won't post here. Greg tries hard to avoid reading my posts and e-mails, but I am not going to reveal the few things I have learned to do against him just the same. It is enough to have a few of his larger bills to buy into my first poker game, probably at Sam's town.
Monday, April 7, 2008
whining opponents
The following is a poker piece I wrote that seems to have been very well received on this board:
http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35491
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Doctor Al wrote
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Sometimes whiner guy is a fairly good player who wants to make us explain what we were thinking or wants to force us into being more predictable. Really bad fishing play on the part of his opponents is only good for him in the long run and not so good if whiner guy bluffs as part of his pattern of play.
Predictable players if they are rigid about it are easier to beat than loose fishing players. In fact, a very difficult table can be one filled with 4 or 5 loose players. Certainly over time they will lose money. But so will we.
If whiner guy can make us cautious about playing questionable hands, he can have more confidence when he plays loose as a bluff or semi bluff and put more money in the pot when he feels very strong. And if he can do that in a really intimidating way, he can get the message across to other loose players who don't want to be embarrassed, especially the ones who say, " I had to call" to explain their ridiculous play.
Sometimes it is a good thing to tighten up the play.
However, most of the time, it is as Al suggests. Whiner guy is mad at randomness when he feels he is smart enough to have almost attained the position of Poker God. He feels you have some obligation to play by rules that give you the best odds. Then he can feel confident in second best hands where you show no strength and in bluffing, and he does not have to worry so much about the river. Some of these guys cannot even count outs or figure pot odds. Just as the whiners at the blackjack table are often unable to count cards or notice dealer tells or understand that other players have no effect on the randomness of their play.
Only in poker unlike blackkjack, good players not only have permission to play long shots, but actually should mix their play up with such hands when they can be played cheaply and then shown loudly to everyone. Especially in limit where no single hand will ever be your entire bankroll.
Nothing is worse than to sit and play almost nothing except free flopped blinds for a hour or two and then get a winning hand, only to find everyone folding out of respect.
But often the whiner will get under the skin of a fairly good player and that player will begin to explain his reasoning, giving too much information, or even worse may embarrass whiner guy by pointing out bad play and so inhibit whiner guy from making his poor bets/calls.
To challenge Whiner guy at the table in my opinion is a wrong move.
I'd rather convince him that I am an idiot or at least that it is an addiction for me.
Sometimes I say:
"Some people can't stop playing bad cards, but I seem to like them best."
Here are some moves I like better than arguing with whiner guy.
First, to just get a sense of where whiner guy and the rest of the table are, I say as I rake in the nice big pot and smile, "When I can't play well, I try to play lucky." Look up to see who laughs. Confident players will get the joke. Whiner guy and his other pattern player buds will snort and think you are a lucky idiot. Both will be just a bit more careful pushing hard with second best. And other fishing players will feel justified in their own fishing.
Sometimes the players who just listen but are new or loose are affected by whiner guy and his issues. Just having an argument about good play between two players will encourage the poorest players at the table to reinspect their games. They might not mind losing money, but they hate losing face. You may win the argument, but lose chips.
Second, occasionally playing poor cards and showing them, especially after a long stretch of throwing away, is the best strategy. To draw attention to your bad play try to get whiner guy to make a comment. Then have some comeback that admits the bad play, but gives some emotional or superstitious reason or quotes some poker expert. How many times have you seen 10-2 played and justified? Plenty.
The bad hand I like to play is 6-9. I like it because I can say, "My buddy Howard told me that this one was just as good as Big Slick. I heard someone call it Big Lick."
I like it because it sets up doubt in the minds of people fishing for those middle straights.
Again, watch for the people who sneer.
I follow up with, "This is my favorite hand. I always play it. I find it is a good all- in hand in no limit too."
Whiner guy will believe you.
So now when 6-9 comes on the flop, and you have other playable cards, the semi bluff is more powerful. If you have raised 7-8 suited preflop (again more of a limit move at a passive table) on the button, why you are golden when the straight hits for you and whiner guy has trips. He puts you on 6-9.
And if you raised on pocket aces, they now look like two pair, 6's and 9's, so facing your represented full house draw, out go the straight fishermen .
If you can get everyone at the table to believe you, you may be able to push the rest out early, especially if you say something (not much) about full house draw. In cases where you just represented 6-9, don't show, but after the cards are mucked, just note out loud that "See, my favorite hands wins again." and keep whiner guy on the line. Sometimes you can pretend to play those cards all afternoon and send whiner guy away telling his buddies about the crazy guy who always played 6-9 and sure enough that is what came up on the flop.
If you keep it for a free flop from the blind, be certain to show it if it wins even if they all fold. Whiner guy will forget it was free after the betting in between and shake his head that you played it again and caught your cards. And remember not to correct his misperception by reminding him it was a "big blind special" almost as an apology for your poor play.
Here on the discussion board poor play might allow for apology. In a live game, poor play needs to be celebrated.
Celebrating a fake "favorite hand" is a great system.
Remembering that you are playing poker and that untimately your self respect will come from raking up chips and not from what anyone says. This is hard, especially for men, but important.
Abandon testosterone's temptation for poker's disingenuous dance.
My favorite example was when I was playing at the El Cortez one night with a smarty mouthed kid on my right and a loose-Mike on his right. I caught cards that night and had the respect of most players so when Mike bet and kid did his regular raise, I could reraise good pairs and push everyone else out. Mike and the kid bet on anything, so I had good odds. But it was pretty much a flop game as they would bet and raise their nothing again. I had to hit the flop. Then I would get paid. I was lucky to hit it often.
When I was first to act and actually had high pairs, I could wait to see where the table was before betting. If a good player bet into Mike and Kid, then I had to revaluate. Otherwise my reraise would be enough to limit most play after me.
Well, I kept hitting. Kid stopped being friendly and then got abusive. He referred to me in ways that were intended to be disrespectful. I stopped talking. Other people at the table tried to change his behavior as they were offended for me. The brush came twice to evict him, but I waved him off and just said, "no problem." Finally, no one could take it anymore and they tossed him out.
And then the table started to console me for the abuse. What lectures of how I deserved better, that I should not have had to take that verbal abuse, of respect for my age, that the kid was way out of line. What empathy, what friendliness.
It was amazing to me that I could be the top chip leader and take my three trays from the table and leave the people I beat feeling sorry for me and wishing me better times.
"Well, at least I was lucky", I remarked, "I just played all my favorite cards and they hit. Especially my favorite 6-9 hand"
Who knows, I might play with those folks again sometime. Might as well leave them with a good 6-9 myth top remember me by even if in that particular game, I never once played 6-9.
Three trays might not seem like much to no limit players, but that El Cortez game is started with one single dollar blind and the bets must be less than $3 until the river.
Tight, good play at the El Cortez over an evening might get $30 profit on average with respectful players. One fellow I know there plays everyday and is very good. He says that $30 is his daily average over the year.
I go mostly for the unlimited Myers Rum, the characters and their banter. For me it was like someone offering to pay me $5 - $30 dollars everytime he called me a**hole. I guess I would not take that straight up payment from anyone if poker was not involved, but Kid did not know that was the arrangement. He thought my reraises were just lucky bets.
So kid hit the road with an almost empty wallet while I took my money and had a fine graveyard breakfast.
We always want Whiner Guy to hit the road broke and so ticked off he can hardly eat a meal.
And we want to leave with all his chips.
If we can keep him whining, we have a much better chance at doing that. And if we can enable him to teach the rest of the players that we are not very good, but just lucky, well......that, at least in low limit, is even better than knowing outs and pot odds.
http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35491
***************
Doctor Al wrote
"To the whiner: Why would you berate somebody who made a low percentage play? Do you really want your opponent to play smarter? Not only is it whining, it doesn't even make sense. And half these guys aren't the best judge of "dumb calls" anyway."
***********************
Sometimes whiner guy is a fairly good player who wants to make us explain what we were thinking or wants to force us into being more predictable. Really bad fishing play on the part of his opponents is only good for him in the long run and not so good if whiner guy bluffs as part of his pattern of play.
Predictable players if they are rigid about it are easier to beat than loose fishing players. In fact, a very difficult table can be one filled with 4 or 5 loose players. Certainly over time they will lose money. But so will we.
If whiner guy can make us cautious about playing questionable hands, he can have more confidence when he plays loose as a bluff or semi bluff and put more money in the pot when he feels very strong. And if he can do that in a really intimidating way, he can get the message across to other loose players who don't want to be embarrassed, especially the ones who say, " I had to call" to explain their ridiculous play.
Sometimes it is a good thing to tighten up the play.
However, most of the time, it is as Al suggests. Whiner guy is mad at randomness when he feels he is smart enough to have almost attained the position of Poker God. He feels you have some obligation to play by rules that give you the best odds. Then he can feel confident in second best hands where you show no strength and in bluffing, and he does not have to worry so much about the river. Some of these guys cannot even count outs or figure pot odds. Just as the whiners at the blackjack table are often unable to count cards or notice dealer tells or understand that other players have no effect on the randomness of their play.
Only in poker unlike blackkjack, good players not only have permission to play long shots, but actually should mix their play up with such hands when they can be played cheaply and then shown loudly to everyone. Especially in limit where no single hand will ever be your entire bankroll.
Nothing is worse than to sit and play almost nothing except free flopped blinds for a hour or two and then get a winning hand, only to find everyone folding out of respect.
But often the whiner will get under the skin of a fairly good player and that player will begin to explain his reasoning, giving too much information, or even worse may embarrass whiner guy by pointing out bad play and so inhibit whiner guy from making his poor bets/calls.
To challenge Whiner guy at the table in my opinion is a wrong move.
I'd rather convince him that I am an idiot or at least that it is an addiction for me.
Sometimes I say:
"Some people can't stop playing bad cards, but I seem to like them best."
Here are some moves I like better than arguing with whiner guy.
First, to just get a sense of where whiner guy and the rest of the table are, I say as I rake in the nice big pot and smile, "When I can't play well, I try to play lucky." Look up to see who laughs. Confident players will get the joke. Whiner guy and his other pattern player buds will snort and think you are a lucky idiot. Both will be just a bit more careful pushing hard with second best. And other fishing players will feel justified in their own fishing.
Sometimes the players who just listen but are new or loose are affected by whiner guy and his issues. Just having an argument about good play between two players will encourage the poorest players at the table to reinspect their games. They might not mind losing money, but they hate losing face. You may win the argument, but lose chips.
Second, occasionally playing poor cards and showing them, especially after a long stretch of throwing away, is the best strategy. To draw attention to your bad play try to get whiner guy to make a comment. Then have some comeback that admits the bad play, but gives some emotional or superstitious reason or quotes some poker expert. How many times have you seen 10-2 played and justified? Plenty.
The bad hand I like to play is 6-9. I like it because I can say, "My buddy Howard told me that this one was just as good as Big Slick. I heard someone call it Big Lick."
I like it because it sets up doubt in the minds of people fishing for those middle straights.
Again, watch for the people who sneer.
I follow up with, "This is my favorite hand. I always play it. I find it is a good all- in hand in no limit too."
Whiner guy will believe you.
So now when 6-9 comes on the flop, and you have other playable cards, the semi bluff is more powerful. If you have raised 7-8 suited preflop (again more of a limit move at a passive table) on the button, why you are golden when the straight hits for you and whiner guy has trips. He puts you on 6-9.
And if you raised on pocket aces, they now look like two pair, 6's and 9's, so facing your represented full house draw, out go the straight fishermen .
If you can get everyone at the table to believe you, you may be able to push the rest out early, especially if you say something (not much) about full house draw. In cases where you just represented 6-9, don't show, but after the cards are mucked, just note out loud that "See, my favorite hands wins again." and keep whiner guy on the line. Sometimes you can pretend to play those cards all afternoon and send whiner guy away telling his buddies about the crazy guy who always played 6-9 and sure enough that is what came up on the flop.
If you keep it for a free flop from the blind, be certain to show it if it wins even if they all fold. Whiner guy will forget it was free after the betting in between and shake his head that you played it again and caught your cards. And remember not to correct his misperception by reminding him it was a "big blind special" almost as an apology for your poor play.
Here on the discussion board poor play might allow for apology. In a live game, poor play needs to be celebrated.
Celebrating a fake "favorite hand" is a great system.
Remembering that you are playing poker and that untimately your self respect will come from raking up chips and not from what anyone says. This is hard, especially for men, but important.
Abandon testosterone's temptation for poker's disingenuous dance.
My favorite example was when I was playing at the El Cortez one night with a smarty mouthed kid on my right and a loose-Mike on his right. I caught cards that night and had the respect of most players so when Mike bet and kid did his regular raise, I could reraise good pairs and push everyone else out. Mike and the kid bet on anything, so I had good odds. But it was pretty much a flop game as they would bet and raise their nothing again. I had to hit the flop. Then I would get paid. I was lucky to hit it often.
When I was first to act and actually had high pairs, I could wait to see where the table was before betting. If a good player bet into Mike and Kid, then I had to revaluate. Otherwise my reraise would be enough to limit most play after me.
Well, I kept hitting. Kid stopped being friendly and then got abusive. He referred to me in ways that were intended to be disrespectful. I stopped talking. Other people at the table tried to change his behavior as they were offended for me. The brush came twice to evict him, but I waved him off and just said, "no problem." Finally, no one could take it anymore and they tossed him out.
And then the table started to console me for the abuse. What lectures of how I deserved better, that I should not have had to take that verbal abuse, of respect for my age, that the kid was way out of line. What empathy, what friendliness.
It was amazing to me that I could be the top chip leader and take my three trays from the table and leave the people I beat feeling sorry for me and wishing me better times.
"Well, at least I was lucky", I remarked, "I just played all my favorite cards and they hit. Especially my favorite 6-9 hand"
Who knows, I might play with those folks again sometime. Might as well leave them with a good 6-9 myth top remember me by even if in that particular game, I never once played 6-9.
Three trays might not seem like much to no limit players, but that El Cortez game is started with one single dollar blind and the bets must be less than $3 until the river.
Tight, good play at the El Cortez over an evening might get $30 profit on average with respectful players. One fellow I know there plays everyday and is very good. He says that $30 is his daily average over the year.
I go mostly for the unlimited Myers Rum, the characters and their banter. For me it was like someone offering to pay me $5 - $30 dollars everytime he called me a**hole. I guess I would not take that straight up payment from anyone if poker was not involved, but Kid did not know that was the arrangement. He thought my reraises were just lucky bets.
So kid hit the road with an almost empty wallet while I took my money and had a fine graveyard breakfast.
We always want Whiner Guy to hit the road broke and so ticked off he can hardly eat a meal.
And we want to leave with all his chips.
If we can keep him whining, we have a much better chance at doing that. And if we can enable him to teach the rest of the players that we are not very good, but just lucky, well......that, at least in low limit, is even better than knowing outs and pot odds.
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