electronic dealerless tables

Here is a bit more reaction after my trip on the dealerless tables. I wrote it as a response to an article on Excalibur going dealerless on Vegasmessageboard so some of it is in repsonse to another poster.

Here is the newspaper report on the Excalibur
ARTICLE ON DEALERLESS POKER AT EXCALIBUR

There is certainly a number of players who enjoy handling chips, and a few very good players who read "tells" effectively by watching the way opponents handle chips.
There is also a lot to be said for having some very pretty dealer to watch and flirt with during the long boring times between playable hands.
However, I have played dealerless at Four Winds New Buffalo Michigan and in the new Horseshoe Casino outside Chicago and there are lots of advantages.

The first is the same advantage I find in all casino games. There is someone else watching the game. In home games I find that so much of my time is taken up monitoring the game itself for misplay and error, that I just get tired. That is one reason I am willing to go to casinos adn pay a rake. It also lessens the possibility of cheating. In the electronic game, the elimination of the dealer eliminates the last of human error and most monitoring is unnecessary. The elimination of physical cards makes marking cards impossible.

The computer deals and cards never get misdealt or mixed up. There is never some card turned over that is the burn card and changes the game in ways you cannot calculate.
No player can play out of turn.
No player or dealer can miscount chips.
The amount of each player's chips is always visible. The amount in the pot is visible in numbers so the math of pot odds does not require converting chips to numbers.
Players who check do it clearly. Never is there ambiguity about who checked or some shifty player making four people after him act before he decides to bet. It can't happen.

Ever sit to the left of the dealer and wonder when it was your turn to bet, or what the player before you looked like as s/he made the bet or evaluated the flop? Ever find it frustrating to protect your cards? In automated poker you see the face of every player just by looking. You can't bet or fold out of turn and neither can any other player. You don't need to protect anything.

If you daydream and forget it is your turn, one of the other players will remind you. They have your name right there in front of them. They easily get your attention.

Also, the speed of the game makes tight play easier to manage without going to sleep with boredom waiting for cards.
This makes the loose guys last for less time. It means waiting out two self destructing maniacs takes half the time it does on a live table.
Dealer changes do not require washing and counting chip trays and shuffling and reminding of blinds.

Screens were easy to learn and use. Most played with their player cards rather than fingers.

Some reported that there was less player interaction, but I think most of those folks have not played much on these machines and just confuse this with playing on the computer at home and so they imagine a similar isolation. If anything, there is more player interaction. No dealer is there to get involved or to dominate every discussion. There might be a bit too much said at times depending on the floor supervision. I would watch for collusion.

Chips may be "fun" just as coins were fun in slots. But frankly I am tired of pushing in the chips on oversized tables to short armed dealers, tired of listening to them whine about it, tired of monitoring some brain dead neighbor player and reminding him to push in his chips because he can't get the idea that the dealer can't reach his chips. No chips drop and scatter when it is time to cash out. No chips splash the pot. No large chips are hidden in the stacks of an opponents smaller chips. Nothing is hidden. I even know the player's name. there is no attempt by some player to give his aging mother across the table chips and no lecture on how only money can be exchanged. There are no uneven split pots, no quarters to build up in my pocket. No noe can underbet by mistake. Try to raise less than a precious player and you just can't raise. No pot will be pushed to the wrong player, the winners cards mucked.

Buy ins do not hold up the game. I can put a few hundred dollars on my card and keep my chipstack at the max of $100, $5 at a time if I want. I don't have to put chips in my pocket and count and recount so as not to be accused of trying to get more than $100 on the table.

Most impressive was the rake reduction in many places. At the Horsehoe the rake was just $3. Compare that to the standard Harrah's $6 rake in their live poker room and add one dollar for dealer tip. They take the promo dollar in spite of the fact that they offer no promotion, only promotion promises.No mention in the article about rake or blinds for Excalibur and yet that certainly makes a big difference in long term play.

However, I think the rakes will change over time to reflect what the market will bear. Right now the idea was to attract new players to the machine games. One fellow reported on a cruise ship where the rake capped at 10%. If it is the only game in town, the rakes will go up. but that has nothing to do with having a delaer or not. It may well have more to do with player apathy. Very disturbing to me is that players just do not care about rakes enough. Rarely are they reported or advertised. In an evaluation of a poker room, I am more apt to learn about how comfortable the chairs are than how much the rake takes or how it is taken. In fact, I never meet a player who undertands how the Wynn rake advertised as 10% capped at $4 on a 3-6 game is much, much better than other rakes capped at $4 and advertised as 10%

Blinds for no limit were 50 cent and 1 dollar in these Midwest games. Another good thing for the low roller and for the tight player waiting for cards.

The Horseshoe put these machines outside their poker room and allowed smoking. So they both attracted smoking players and set up a spot where the live poker players might gather for a smoke. That was the worst for me. The place was worse than the El Cortez in the old days. But for smokers it was a great advantage. The argument for nonsmoking rooms has revolved around dealer health so for casinos that manage to keep a smoking section, these poker tables give them a loophole.

The only annoying thing I have noticed is that it is just too easy, when playing with that little plastic card (works better than fingers for most,) to start mindlessly tapping it on the hard plastic of the poker screen. That can get annoying after a while.

What needs to be invented next is some decorative pointed tool for playing that takes the place of the popular card protectors. I envision a light object that fits over the finger and extends it to a hard dull point, across between artificial nails and an unsharpened pencil. It does not have to be held like a poker card.

I wondered about the settling of disputes. Well, I experienced my first heated argument at a table at the Four Winds. One player would not sit, but insisted on kneeling in his chair. Other players insisted it would affect the bad beat and void it if dealt to this fellow. The argument went to name calling, but soon the floor was called.
The fellow working the floor was not very assertive. He did not insist on his way. Finally, he called his manager. While the player waited to "check the rulebook," he was put in a timeout position and needed to leave the table. He was in effect dealt out.
I thought it worked to diffuse the situation. Dealerless tables do lose the police role of the dealer. But there is less to lecture players about also. The show one/ show all frustration common at the table is eliminated. To show a card or two, you hit a button and the card briefly appears for all to see who are looking. By the way, you can't do this in the middle of the action.



Mohegan Sun in Connecticut takes the $4.75 from everyone every half hour, but I have heard that rakes in Montreal and Hull outside Ottawa are real rakes and not payments for the seat. Ottawa announced they held the largest tournament in the world using dealerless machines.
Turning Stone in NY has a machine or two, but use them only for sit and go games.

I am certain that they will catch on over time. They are a great benefit for the casino as they avoid all the problem of keeping enough dealers around, of labor disputes, of interpersonal difficulties.
The Excalibur argument that poker is somehow fading in popularity is not my experience. I think that is just a casino created excuse to get rid of the personnel issues.
A Vegas dealer I read speculated it had more to do with the position of Excalibur on the strip and with the large number of poker rooms. They simply had not competed well with MGM for the high games and those playing low 2-4 were drifting more to the Imperial Palace and others in that Flamingo strip area, even the little OShea's spread game.

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RESPONSE TO HURRICANE MIKE WHO COMPARED TO BJ AND TO VENDING MACHINE FOOD.

I can't imagine being a dealer and being as open minded as you are here Hurricane Mikey. Very nice analysis. I especially was wondering why Excalibur was talking about the dip in the interest of live poker and your argument makes perfect sense in terms of strip geography. I don't see much dip in poker interest in general. I think if the trend was lessening Mohegan Sun would not have opened their large new pokerroom nor would the Canadians finally get on board with live poker, all dealerless by the way. The casino in Hull outside Ottawa has been advertising the largest tournaments in the world on dealerless machines.

I don't think that computerized blackjack results will dictate the trend in poker because I don't think that the computer improved the BJ game for the player in any way while the computer makes many improvements in the live poker game. One of the hardest aspects of live poker is the time it takes to play it and the patience it requires to wait while the player tosses hands away. The first third of the book Tao of Poker, for instance, offers advice on ways to develop patience. Patience and position are important in live poker. And in automated games twice as many hands are dealt and position comes around twice as fast. This is probably the key advantage to most of the folks who chose these new tables. That an the rake.

You are right that the rakes may go up to what the market will bear. This is especially true if playrs don't look at rakes before they play. But dealerless tables at least makes it possible for a casino to take less money and yet make more money. Competition and consumer choice should do the rest. Your ship example is a perfect case of a situation where there is not competition. Vegas is not an isolated ship.

And I am hoping that live poker players as a group are not as stupid as masses of slot players and VP players who will play anything. But even for them where there is competition, better games emerge to attract the few who know how to read a paytable and loose slots ( or the illusion) will attract customers.

Every hand of blackjack is played. 80% of live poker hands are discarded. Most of the players at the live poker tables point to the speed of hands per hour as a great benefit. Speeding up hands per hour in blackjack for mathematical saavy players (since it is a game with a house advantage for all but a tiny minority) just makes players pay more for their fun.

There is nothing in BJ analogous either to the added stats offered in poker by the computer. The machine tells us at a glance what each player has, what is in the pot, and even offers percentage statistics on all-in hands.
All that adds to the ease of the game.
Also in live blackjack, I don't think anyone plays out of turn as they do in live poker. NOr are other player's affected if one player shows his hand to another for advice.

It is hard to know when it is your turn in live poker. it requires constant monitoring, especially if the dealer is positioned between you and other players when the dealer is really in your way and obstructing your vision.

Sit to the left of a dealer and you have to wonder if the guy before you played yet, wonder how he looked when he checked the board and decided what to do, and protect your cards so the dealer does not swipe them up. And many dealers do not even tap your way unless you ask them and even after asking it is sometimes necessary to "teach" them they must by simply not betting until they in some way indicate it is your turn.

None of this in dealerless tables. You see the face of every player.

No problem with show one/ show all either. No need to monitor that. To show a card or two, a player hits a button as they fold and the card appears briefly for all who care to see it.

As far as the food analogy goes. Vending machines were expected to take over when they were first created, maybe in the 50's, but there the loss of the server who might be able to change the menu item or give advice took away from the experience as well as the assembly line production of the food itself.

Perhaps a more pertinent food analogy is the buffet.

I already tend to choose the buffet over the restaurant because for me it improved the food experience. I don't have to rely on the advice of the server or imagine what the food looks or tastes like. I can try a bit. Sometimes I can even talk to the chef. I no longer have to try to figure out if I want "over easy" or "over medium" eggs. I just tell the cook to make them so the yoke runs but the white is not slimy. Last time I even talked cooks into making me an "omlet" by tossing the fixings right on top of the "over easy/medium eggs." Getting rid of the middleman in that situation is of great benefit.

Also the drinks are included and the tip is less. Often the tip at a restaurant ends up being equal to what I pay for the entire meal at the buffet.

And yesterday at the Four Winds here in Michigan (where alcohol is not free) I cut out another middle man, the cocktail waitressI used their free areas for coffee and soda that they have scattered around the casino and improved the quality and the price of my coffee. Here too I did not have to explain just how much sweet and low I wanted and I could go back and warm up my coffee if it sat too long. And the free coffee was....well, it was free.
I even like the buffets where I get my own drink. That means I can mix my juices, or put a bit of lemonaid in my coke, balance my ice to my own taste, and have my coffee hot, just when I want it simply by walking up and helping myself.
Some like people waiting on them, but for me the best way to be served, is to serve myself.
Some poker rooms in Vegas have free coffee. I think I remember liking the one in Imperial Palace because it displayed a variety of flavors. Again I could add just a bit of hazelnut to my regular.

And while vending machine food did not take much of the food market, fast food places that eliminate the server have done very well, and partly because in the Food Court you leave no tip.

Of course, this is not good news for worker and the dealerless poker table is not good news for the live dealer. I was interested that it might improve service among those who do not care if they do a very good job.

This week I read an old Robert Benchley humorous piece from the 30's in which he described his inept ability to tell the elevator operator which floor he wanted in a loud enough voice and at the correct time. It was funny, just as his essay on the difficulty of getting and keeping enough coal in his furnace was funny. the humor reflected a time before technological innovation made his jokes outdated.

From the dealer's perspective this can't be a good change. From the player's perspective and that of the casino, it is improvement except for those who need live chips in their hands or want the dealer/player interaction and those stuck in comfortable ways like the writers who still only use snail mail. One fellow at my table yesterday brought with him some real chips just so he could continue that shuffling of two stacks into one so popular with poker players. They entertained him in comfortable ways. The fellow next to me had it much easier reading the Poker News between hands.


I know there are folks who go to Vegas just to find a particular dealer who makes them feel good in the way a good bartender might. And I was amused that when the automated blackjack machines created their large blowup screens with virtual dealers, they tended to be beautiful Asian women, indicating that some players want eye candy. Certainly many crave entertainment from a dealer as Imperial Palace found out when they created their Dealertainers.

The problem is that most serious poker players, especially in a no limit game want to concentrate, study other players, and not be distracted. I think electronic poker tables may catch on faster than many expect and that they won't attract beginning players as much as satisfy the needs of those who follow the game well and of those who wait for cards.

http://www.lvrj.com/business/27756919.html

Four Winds

E and I went down to Four Winds for the afternoon. She played some 8/5 $1 bonus but short played just one dollar at a time. She was stretching out her $20 for just a little while. She won $12.

Today we found the self service coffee and soda. Nice. No dollar tip for delivery. Alcohol is charged, and tipping a dollar for a cup of coffee which may or may not have the correct amount of sweet and low is not fun for me. There are quite a few self serve spots scattered around the floor. I liked being able to just warm up a cup by topping it off.

There is also a section of smoke free machines and they had pretty good VP. I did not find dollar 9/6 JOB there; it was 9/5 JOB, but the Bonus was 8/5.

I played live poker and left just $6 up for the day after many ups and downs during the afternoon. I found the table full of regulars, for the most part, who were tight and passive so it was an easy game to play, but a hard game at which to win money. One of the players was the best from yesterday's table. It turns out he plays everyday. He has only missed about ten days all year. He was very hard to beat.

I had a few fine hands. I got paid once when I played a 9-7 offsuit just for the hell of it and had the nut flush by the turn. After the river made smaller straights possible, I went all in and was called by a tough opponent to my left.

I had another fine all-in bet when I had queens full of kings and my opponent was almost down to his last bit of bankroll. Otherwise I may have made more money on that one. I made no money on my four sixes. That same fellow bet $5 into me to try to steal, but would not call my raise to $15.

I see some of my errors and will work to correct them. But overall I believe I am ready to play some no limit on occasion. I won't play much in Vegas. I like the volatility to be about a swing of $100 over hours and hours of play with comps and free drinks being the real winnings. I could not play no limit everyday for 15 days.

Now, I have some more observations about dealerless tables.

1. the idea that there is no exchanges among players is not quite true. We had a great time talking and there were even some fishing stories. There were lots of stories about regulars and odd events. It was a fine, friendly table.
We had one fellow who refused to sit in the chair, but rested on his knees in the seat a head or so higher than out heads. I did not like that, but I did not know that the rule was to be seated. Another player took him to task about it out ow worry it would void the bad beat award. The award is now up to $210,000. (Imagine your aces full of kings beat by four of a kind and as consolation you win 105,000.)
The floor was a young fellow and he was much too nice about the issue and permitted the obnoxious kid to argue with him. In Vegas, once the kid said no to the floor, security would be called and he would be ejected. I remember one obnoxious kid who argued with a dealer too long about a hand being not only ejected from the casino but walked to his room in that casino and monitored while he packed his bags.

But I did feel that it did not take much to solve a dispute even without a dealer as the first round of support.

2. Using a plastic card to make decisions is just fine until some player's decide they need to tap it on the hard plastic of the screen. Repetitive tapping is pretty annoying. Since decorative card protectors have no place in this game, I suggest that decorative playing pointers be designed and I may get my own before the next game. Perhaps designing some that fit over the finger and act like a decorative finger nail would be very useful and comfortable.

3. I actually saw a fellow bring in chips and sit playing while he merged two stacks into one stack and played with them. They were of no use in the game, but clearly helped him concentrate and reminded him of the "old days."

4. I want to spend some time at a game with a friend to my right and left and develop a perfect way to be certain that even if someone is looking from above me, my hand is protected. The machine requires new hand positions.

5. Don't confuse players who have no idea how the machine works with players who have no idea how the game is played. When players need the dealer to help them understand blinds and raises, etc in a live game, you know they are not very good or faking ignorance. Here they just have not played using the computer.

6. Number one bluff reported to be working is to make an all- in bet and then fake being upset that by "mistake" you bet it all when you wanted only to bet only a little. The act is on in order to encourage people to call the nuts hand all-in bet or one of good strength.

7. That being said, do not get in the habit of confirming the bet too quickly. I wanted to bet $5 as an informational gathering bet and hit the $5 twice by mistake. I confirmed without really seeing that mistake, so I had to fold a $10 bet when the guy to my left went all in. I got the information I wanted only it cost me another $5.

8. Be sure when you go to the bathroom to go to options and choose "sit out a hand" and then hit Okay to confirm. Then when you come back you must swipe your card, enter your pin, and then you will be dealt back in. If you leave without doing that, you frustrate the table because the machine will indicate it is your turn. You can get timed out, but that is very impolite. When you come back, give yourself time to swipe and enter your pin so as not to miss a hand.

Okay, that is all I have. That is probably my last visit. We go home on Sunday.
See my next post for more response to the dealerless tables.

Playing on the way to chicago

I played poker twice on this trip. ONce at the Seneca Alleghany near Jametown and then last night here in the new poker room at the Horseshoe in Hammond.

I won only $4 playing a limit 3-6 with a $2 small blind and a kill. It was a hard game especially since the rake is that Harrah's $6 with one going into a pot for a promotional which they have yet to announce.

I would have lost much more because I went on tilt after a flopped two pair of K-7 was beat on the river by a K-9 who bet into me the entire time and caught a gut shot straight. This was a kill pot, stakes of $6-$12.

I got pissed and raised my next hand K-Q. A good player took over the betting after the flop but I had an open ended straight draw and caught the A for the nuts on the river. So that was no a kill,b ut it brought me back even and I decided to get out as the poore players had clearly been replaced by better players, and preflop raisers when the stakes are 6-12 is too rich a game for me.

I miss Laughlin.

I lost at SenecA Alleghany playing a no limit game. My last hand I had trip tens with a queen, my opponent TRIP TENS with a king.

So I am down $143 for the trip.

I am comfortable now with no limit, but I sure am spoiled by Laughlin. Thinking about it, I realize that I play best in games with one single blind. Players are easier to put on cards and I can play a tight wait and see game and throw hands away for free.

And compared to what the River Palms does with rakes, who wants to play at Harrah's. For only a $5 cut from winning pots at River Palms, the casino gives back every kind of high hand bad beat bonus you can imagine and free rooms for 6 hours of play. It will certainly be my new home.

The horseshoe also has games with dealerless machines that take a bit smaller rake, but they put them out in the smoking area and they were full of smokers so happy to be playing poker and smoking. It was a good idea by the casino, but there was no place for me in that scene.

I am hoping to play some no limit at Four Winds in New Buffalo Michigan when we get up to Lakeside. I am happy that Slink finally made me start with the 1-2 100 max no limit games as it gives me some flexibility. I don't think I am quite good enough yet, but I am getting it.

Greg's games helped me make that shift. Much of what we do there works in the casino. And there are always times when I consciously become Greg. That betting into weakness is a great technique. One old player at the El Cortez once told me that in limit poker if two people check, you bet. He gave away too much of his strategy, so when he did that, I raised him, but it was interesting advice.

My best hand last night was J-Q clubs on the button with everyone having seen one raise to my right. So I was the only reraise preflop of the day. All called and it was a nice pot when the jack hit the flop with rag-rag. They all checked and I bet and was not called. Another jack hit the turn. I just bet out and one guy folded and another jack stayed with me with a 10 kicker. It was a decent pot.

dew

Turning Stone with Slink on Yankee Trails

Slink and I took the Yankee Trails bus up to Turning Stone for a day of poker. The ride was fine, the bus not so crowded that we did not get a seat together and we had plenty to talk about as always. It was much too hot and even a word to the driver did not get much relief back to us. Perhaps they leave the AC off to save gas. No one else complained so maybe it was just us. the driver was friendly and easy and not long winded in his instructions. He did not treat us old ones like a classroom of babies when telling the times to board and the time the bus would pull out. He did not worry us. He just drover the bus.

There was no movie. We did not need one, but had Slink not been talkative, I'd have been bored on the way home.

On the way out Slink talked me into trying the 1-2 100 max no limit game and I found it playable. I was up a bit in the morning, then down again. At early after noon when we went to the buffet, I was down $8..

After lunch I got down $40 and decided to buy back up to $100 so as not to be short paid on good cards. A few hands later I was dealt K-K under the gun. I raised the typical $6 and two seats away a fellow raised to $12 so that sifted out some late acting players.

Well, I thought as I called, if an ace comes on the flop, I'm done.
Flop was K-Q-X. Two hearts
I was thrilled.
I checked and bettor guy did a healthy bet that left the guy to his left and me calling.
The turn was a rag and no heart so that killed my runner runner king of heart high flush.
I checked and better guy tossed in three $25 chips.
He was a talker.
Here he turned to the guy next to him and said,
"That will make your flush draw very expensive."

So then I knew I had bettor guy beat.
I put him on Q-Q-Q
The guy next to him went all in and so did I.

I turned my K-K
Bettor guy turned A-A
and the other guy turned A-K
No hearts. Only one out could beat me.
River rag and I am sitting with almost $300 in front of me.

Well, I did not like playing that much in one hand nor did I like better guy betting behind me and pushing so after a few hands of listening to that and his endless drivel talk about his cat, I decided to go even if I was sitting next to a young cutie.

Bettter guy was not happy to see his money leaving.
I went to 2-4. The first game was short and bad.
I walked down and played my keno matchplays, $6 got me $12 bet across six games and so I watched the balls bounce into the shaft and at the end picked up my only win, just $2. Even with matchplays it is very hard to hit Keno.

Back at the poker table I was at a fine game full of calling stations. Everyone was in on every flop. So I began to raise my draw button hands. Once I raised on 6-8 just for fun. The guy to the left had K-K. On the flop I got an inside draw and a free card while K-K planned his check raise that was not going to happen. The turn gave me trip sixes so I raised K-K who finally was relieved to be betting his monster hand.
"You must have caught your straight he said as he called. I have a straight but it is smaller so I won't raise."
The river gave me my gut shot straight but K-K had to call me to see it.
He was pretty mad, but then he was mad the entire trip.

Later I hold A-J which Slink has been losing with all day on no limit even after he flops two pair. I flop J-J-9. I am last to act, but I don't bet.
The turn comes yet another Jack.
Well, I figure I win but I don't get paid on this. Even a guy with a nine full might not call my bet, but I figure wrong as a guy with a queen-nine bets and another guy calls and then I call. On the river the Queen makes the first better really happy. He bets. The second guy is very unsure so I take the chip stack off my chips and put them in my hands as if I am going to fold them when he has finally acted. He calles.
I raise. First better calls and the other guys swears a lot and throws his cards away.
So it was a decent pot afterall. No free room, however, like in River Palms.
No free drinks either. All day I've been adding my own Myer's rum from the flask that nephew Chris gave me for my birthday to the "free cokes."
With the bus bonus the buffet cost over $8,.

The freeplay goes like water threw a sieve. I play max bets on a Lion Fish machine where Slink once hit big. There is no reason to try any grinding bets because Turning Stone actually takes back the $25 they put on your card if you turn in a winning card. I was ahead $7 once. Guess I should have taken the seven and booked.

So the bus is not such a good deal as at Foxwoods. But it is much, much shorter. It is $5 cheaper too. So that almost covers the buffet.

Slink lost all day. He left ready for a poker holiday or maybe a 2-4 game switch.
I liked the no limit, but I think the 2-4 pays just as much with less need to concentrate at all on who plays what but just dance the limit dance in patterns and no need to throw everything away either. There 8-9 of clubs is a much better bet than K-10 offsuit. In late position especially. If I was a bit more ready to gamble big bucks, I would have had a fine opportunity with $250 in front of me to win some real money. But I hate risking that much on one bad beat.

And sitting next to a very sexy Asian dealer at the 2-4 was not too bad, especially when she told me that my gentle humming relaxed her. Almost put her to bed. For some unknown reason I was humming the theme from some old TV show (probably rum inspired) and at first I thought she was telling me in a nice way that it was annoying, but that was not it at all. So not having to watch my opponents, I watched her deal. Ah, the delights of 2-4 poker.

Came away just $136 ahead. It seemed I ought to have more than that, but I did not.
Stiill, that is a fine hedge against my losses lately.

Bill's game July 23

poker - July 23, 2008

Bill hosted today and Robin came down so there were five of us, six for a while when Bill's son played. it was a fine game, different without Greg certainly who takes control of the table.

I played well and felt well in control. I had good cards, but I also had many folds when hands did not develop. I seemed to know what people had and play right. I lost in the beginning, bought in 4 times but ended $69 ahead.

Bill beat me in winnings. The rest lost.

One hand I remember had Bill with trip 8's after the turn. He bet "all in" but it was not all his chips. Peter reminded him that he had a full tray off to the right. It reminded me of once when Greg bet "all in" and then talked his way out of it when I called with lots of chips. Bill back pedaled so well that I decided to call him although I knew he had me beat. I had just pocket jacks, but the river might give me a flush, straight, or another jack. As soon as Bill back pedaled, i put him on trips at best, so I called his bet. A spade gave me the pot.

I got a bit goofy near the end of the session, the way I might at certain tables in Vegas.
I had been very tired. I was up today at 3AM and then I seemed to shift in second syndrome as an old college friend called it.
So I was singing some old TV western themes and goofing, and making a bit too much noise for the group, and they made me quiet down.
Then followed the old, "They would not let you do that in Vegas" discussion. We have a lot of those discussions, often on odd bits of rules. Bruce will often come up with some odd rule he hears on television that has no bearing on casino cash play. Today he was saying that "soft play' was illegal meaning that letting someone win was wrong. Well, not at our game, certainly. And when pushed he admitted that he got the rule not in casino play, but from watching television.
Oh, boy!!

At Slink's last week it was whether casinos let you see a rabbit run. One fellow insisted they did. When I finally asked where it was at Turning Stone and he agreed it was just once in a while. I was generalizing as I have been plenty places where the rule is "no rabbits" especially if a player complains about it. Nothing that slows down the game is tolerated in casinos.

So today is was about how much noise you can make at the table, how distracting you can be. I have been so often at tables where some lose, aggressive player tries to put us off our game with talk and banter. I know some who think it is just part of the game.

Well, anyway, I don't think these guys would much like the El Cortez after midnight when Action Jackson or any of ten other characters are going into their acts of distraction. I don't sing in Vegas, that is true, but I have been at pretty loud tables. The only rule I know is that you can't talk about a hand or read the board for people, or insult anyone. Otherwise, I have never seen even the worst agitator thrown out. Warned perhaps if it gets on the dealers nerves or a player complains.

Well, in less than a week I'll be in Vegas. At first I'll be at quieter tables, and certainly I expect Laughlin will be pretty subdued, but when I finally hit the El Cortez, well, I don't expect quiet there. If Catherine plays there will certainly be some whoop, whoop and a fine run of commentary.

I'm ready.

Foxwoods

Son Peter and I took the Yankee Trails bus to Foxwoods today. I have a voucher, so the trip was free; Peter had a $5 coupon. The benefits are just fine: $20 in keno bets and a free $15 buffet for a $27 fare ($2 less if you book online)

However, it is a long ride, and we had not planned well this time. We had not noted that it was a combined trip, half Foxwoods folks and half Mohegan Sun overnight folks, so on the way out we had to stop at Mohegan Sun first. This would not be much of a time waster if the casino host was there on time and if they would just let the folks off the bus before they explain to them every detail of their two day Mohegan Sun staym warn them about every possible danger, and even be open to questions. Instead the Foxwoods folks must wait for the Mohegan Sun casino host to lecture the overnight folks. She ends by saying if they have any questions they might meet her at her desk in the lobby. I felt that in the lobby is where they should al have met be for the entire lecture.

On the way home one of the passengers brought a fine Johnny Carson comedy tape, so we were entertained. I always forget to bring a few so that the three hour journey back goes a bit easier. some drivers provide a movie. I guess Fred doesn't. This one was a very fine choice, but no one seemed to know how to play the second selection so we had just a one hour break in a three hour trip. And the piped in music was annoying. The quality of the sound is poor. I love Mamas and Papas, but did not recognize them when they sang or enjoy them. It sounded like some teenager had earphones turned up just loud enough to annoy the rest of us and not loud enough so that we could actually catch the melody.

On the way up Peter and I had some fine conversation and that works just great.
The bus driver Fred was very personable. He went over all the details, especially the one about making sure we made the return bus and did not get stuck overnight. Then he also had details for the Mohegan Sun people. He was perfect except he kept saying he was dropping them off tomorrow instead of picking them up and this confused some. He told some jokes so they could not always tell if he was just kidding or not. But in the end it all worked out.

The poker was fine, but both Peter and I lost. I won in the morning on a 2-4 table in spite of the fact that great cards after great cards lost. I lost with A-K three times in a half dozen hands. In the afternoon it went worse and I really lost. I ended $229 down which is a substantial loss for me even if it is only a variation of 1 or 2 hands at the 4-8 game.

Our opponents were not too hard to play. No maniacs capped the betting. Folks were believable and predictable. When I folded my predictions came true, but they were sad predictions. But in the afternoon too my A-K and pocket Kings lost enough to make the table feel sorry for me.

I had to show some and showed others, so that I might get some respect on raises, but that did not work either. It was not a mistake because I really was never in the position to bluff a raise without good cards and very few dropped out when I did make those raises. I tried to bluff with A-K one time againt a guy I knew was weak but he called my bets all the way with his simple pair of Queens and low kicker. I could see him thinking about throwing it in, but he just kept calling.

My best afternoon hand was 4-6 in a blind that caught 3-5 on the flop and a 7 on the river. I had someone betting in to me on the turn, who I check raised after two other people had called him. He called me on the river also. It was unthinkable that I might play a 4-6, I suppose. Maybe showing the A-K helped me after all.

Peter too lost most of his budgeted $70 at 2-4 tables. The morning table was also good for him, but the afternoon caught him. I played with him in the morning, and his play was very good.

The Keno paid us $5 each.

People were friendly at the tables, but not as interesting as Vegas.

I think I like these bus trips better in colder weather when I have been inside and bored for a week. It is just too long a ride even with good company.

I checked again, or tried to, on the poker rate at Foxwoods. As I understand it now, I might get a rate of $69 if I play a while and then ask for it, or I might not. Well, this is of no use to me if I want to sandwich some days between two bus trips.

Yankee Trails will get me there and back, but I would not have a certain place to stay, so I guess if I want to make an overnight trip, I'll book some of the mailed promos (still at $69) and then try for the bus. Even though the bus would cost me $52, it is a good deal as I get coupons for both days, so I eat two $15 buffets and have $40 in free keno bets. All that for about what it would cost me in gas/tolls to drive there and back. But if I drove I could find a cheap $40 motel.

Still, when I can stay in Nevada for under $12 a night, I have trouble swallowing the $69 Foxwoods rate as a "cheap promotion." I guess I need to get over that except that my mathematics of 11 nights of saving $50 a night in hotel expense by going to Nevada more than pays my airfare to fly to Vegas even if the airfare goes up another 50%. Add that to the fact that the first and only time I have tried to book Foxwoods at the $69 rate, they were out of promotional rooms. I suppose sometimes folks hear that hotels in Vegas are out of promotional rooms, but I have never personally been told that in the over ten years of booking promos.

Now if only Laughlin would have bus deals like Yankee Trails. The only promo bus rides I find are one day trips and no luggage can be taken along on the bus. The shuttle is currently $110. So in Nevada a shorter bus trip is 50% more, while the rooms are 60% less. If I were marketing Laughlin, I'd find a way to set up promo bus trips from Vegas in which folks paid for transportation and housing for three or four days.

Day bus rides to Tampa Hard Rock from Crystal River up North where we stay in winter area about the same price as our Yankee Trails, but stay a much shorter time, probably due to rush hour traffic. A short time at a casino is of no use to a poker player.

Local Games

Well, I have not written much of Greg's games lately. I don't think anyone in the group reads these anyway and I can't imagine the game details of much interest to others.

The games go along very well with the regulars coming just about every week. Phil has been in Disneyland, but he comes back for next week, and the Greg takes off for his great China trek after that game, so I won't see that local poker much for a while.

Peter comes every week now. He and Jen go to lunch with me and we have some good talks.

Bill comes too with his classic "unbelievable" comment each time the board goes against him, especially on the river. He won a little last week and lost this week and left early.

I have not been doing well. Greg does well every week. Peter hangs in. He got too loose and tightened a little this week and played a lot smarter, laying down losers. The three of us all made money. I got very lucky. I was holding A-9 of hearts and went all-in when two hearts flopped, Both Peter and Greg called. The turn was heart. Peter bet again, but Greg folded. Pete held two hearts also, one of them was the king. But I had the nut. That hand made my money. Otherwise I'd have been down $20.

After that Greg called the game. He did not want to face both of us if we were as high chipped as he was and perhaps lose his afternoon's winnings in one hand. Smart, but disappointing. It underlines too the fact that although he always says he loves the game, there are times when he is ready to quit with his profits rather than risk a huge loss. Had I not lost so much on the one I overbet, I'd have been able to make more on my big hand from his racks.

Peter still had a harder day. He bought in five times. Both Greg and I had only 2 buys. Mine was almost the first hand of the day, when Bruce took me for an all-in win. Greg lost everything and worked his way back against the big chips to have a few trays. It was really amazing to watch.

There were lots of quads. Bruce and I had them and Greg had them twice. None made huge money, but all did fine.

Greg is very good and hard to figure. He is aggressive, but seems to know when to escape. I learn a good bit playing with him that may come in handy in Vegas/Laughlin at the end of the month, if I play no limit. I had him cornered twice yesterday, once with quads, and could not get him to go over the top with an all-in against me. The one time he went, I did not have it and was pushing him. On my second push, I intended to bet another 20 chips that had matched the pot on my first bet, and instead said, "Match the pot again" so it cost me $60, and then he went all-in. I had to fold.

Keith just got back and lost $30. Unusual. He did win earlier and lost on a night when he said he may have been drinking just a few too many Johnny Walkers. That is my reservation too. The limit games allow some leyway for mistakes. He and Bern had an Elvis renewal of vows at Graceland chapel, just the two of them. So fine to see a couple still in love after ten years.

His experience makes me almost sure to play just limit. I make mistakes even when I don't drink. I turned over my cards by accident yesterday and then folded what ended up being a winning hand. I did not want to play them if everyone had seen them. Otherwise I'd have stayed in for certain. That is the kind of error that is the most stupid. I don't usually make those errors in casinos.

Too often in Greg's games too I give Peter a look at my cards. In the casino I am careful to cup my hands, but I have no deck to shuffle and more time to act and decide. I need to slow down a bit at Greg's, especially when it gets late in the afternoon.

Well, we may play at Slink's on Friday. He wants a game, but was late in announcing so people may have the date planned up. I can go. Last time Karp and his son-in-law came and played pretty loose abd aggressive. It was a hard game figure and I guess they go lucky and took most of the money.

Peter and I expect a day at Foxwoods also. I have a free voucher for the bus. Next week might be good. I am done with the woodworking, but the weather has been so nice here I hate to leave the lake for a long day like that.