Sunday, February 7, 2010
Thursday, February 4, 2010
Poker newsletter
Well Jay wrote that he has not heard from me recently, so I thought I'd send out a bit of gambling news on my poker total list. It would be great if you just hit reply and said "got it" because Robin reports that it dumps in his spam and at times he does not trust to open it. I know there are a few who just dump it without reading. I can take anyone off this list just with a note requesting that. You won't hurt my feelings. I think I have one old friend now who throws away these emails because they are not personal and then throws any personal ones I write away because he thinks they are these Poker Newsletters.
While Jay has been out of the loop as I had his wrong e-mail, and I have been miles away from the regular weekly games, don't think that I have not heard from folks. Robin just e-mailed me a nice long note. Bill wrote warned me that the dingo was out to eat my baby..... oh, no.... it was that my cell phone was being released to telemarketers.
John Blowers called me here in Florida for directions to Peter's game when he misread Orford and put Oxford in his GPS. I called Greg to go on the computer when I was in Bartow and find a restaurant with Fred in the name and je found it, so Elizabeth and I had a fine meal on our way home from the Pompano Casino at Fred's Southern Cooking where we had loved the food last year when I bought my van near there.
We were coming home from lunch with Steve Bourie of the American Casino Guide who offered to buy us lunch and arrange a meetup. I blog on his site often and it was a treat to meet him and have him sign my book which I have ready for my 16 days in Vegas in April coming. I am actually going upscale and staying on the strip to be able to catch tourists in poker games rather that skilled Vegas regulars. Still have average night costs down to under $40 a night even over two weekends. I can't do as well as Slink, but then I go alone so no one boosts my comps with slot play.
Another cool thing to share with you is this podcast interview with Linda Boyd author of Video Poker books. Steve Bourie interviewed her on the new games that are here and this was such a delightfully clear interview with so much information, including a coming video poker game based on Texas Hold em in which they use neural technology to track the play of a big name poker player and then recreate his manner of play so we can play against him on a VP machine. This is due to hit the casinos in March.
http://americancasinoguide.com/podcasts.shtml
I know Linda from her Midwest gambling board which I recommend for good information as well even for no midwest venues. Along with her now is a Chicago based gambling journalist and writer, John Growchowski (Answerman) and having access to those two minds is just great. Bill and I benefited from that connection when Linda hooked us up with free rooms in Laughlin through Edgewater host Janella. Her book is great too. She has simplifies video poker cards without giving up player advantage. I am interested in her recent upgrade as it comes with a 10/7 DB card that was worked up between her and Dean Zamzow who did the real work that Dancer got the name credit for. That is my game.
My son Keith who works for Edward Jones Investments sent me a nice article that deals with investment and gambling.
The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/ym-poker-investing-jan28,0,4183243.story
Well, hope you are all winning if you are gambling.
While Jay has been out of the loop as I had his wrong e-mail, and I have been miles away from the regular weekly games, don't think that I have not heard from folks. Robin just e-mailed me a nice long note. Bill wrote warned me that the dingo was out to eat my baby..... oh, no.... it was that my cell phone was being released to telemarketers.
John Blowers called me here in Florida for directions to Peter's game when he misread Orford and put Oxford in his GPS. I called Greg to go on the computer when I was in Bartow and find a restaurant with Fred in the name and je found it, so Elizabeth and I had a fine meal on our way home from the Pompano Casino at Fred's Southern Cooking where we had loved the food last year when I bought my van near there.
We were coming home from lunch with Steve Bourie of the American Casino Guide who offered to buy us lunch and arrange a meetup. I blog on his site often and it was a treat to meet him and have him sign my book which I have ready for my 16 days in Vegas in April coming. I am actually going upscale and staying on the strip to be able to catch tourists in poker games rather that skilled Vegas regulars. Still have average night costs down to under $40 a night even over two weekends. I can't do as well as Slink, but then I go alone so no one boosts my comps with slot play.
Another cool thing to share with you is this podcast interview with Linda Boyd author of Video Poker books. Steve Bourie interviewed her on the new games that are here and this was such a delightfully clear interview with so much information, including a coming video poker game based on Texas Hold em in which they use neural technology to track the play of a big name poker player and then recreate his manner of play so we can play against him on a VP machine. This is due to hit the casinos in March.
http://americancasinoguide.com/podcasts.shtml
I know Linda from her Midwest gambling board which I recommend for good information as well even for no midwest venues. Along with her now is a Chicago based gambling journalist and writer, John Growchowski (Answerman) and having access to those two minds is just great. Bill and I benefited from that connection when Linda hooked us up with free rooms in Laughlin through Edgewater host Janella. Her book is great too. She has simplifies video poker cards without giving up player advantage. I am interested in her recent upgrade as it comes with a 10/7 DB card that was worked up between her and Dean Zamzow who did the real work that Dancer got the name credit for. That is my game.
My son Keith who works for Edward Jones Investments sent me a nice article that deals with investment and gambling.
The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/ym-poker-investing-jan28,0,4183243.story
Well, hope you are all winning if you are gambling.
Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Tampa Downs again
Well, I do like this place and actually it is not much farther than Turning Stone so I'll be back. However, I did not fare well yesterday in a very tight 2-4 or in their 1-1 no limit game (top buy in $60) I liked playing both and when I went back to the 2-4 it was the soft friendly game we had there the night before so I did make some money back. Over two days of play I ended $30 down, but that included an $80 bonus win on my quad queens so it does not reflect my superior play.
I played a while on the NL in poor position relative to two other guys who generally raised pots. Once I move to their left I did better. I did take a couple pots, but then my cards dried up. My A-3 two pair was beat with A-9 two pair and that reminded me that no matter how cheap, it is just not good to play those cards.
Ron has not played poker often and had a hard hit his first day at the track by playing too loose, but he is a quick learner and by the second visit was playing better than I was. He lost however, so I don't know if I have talked him into this as a gambling hobby.
We did have a dream table our first visit with a woman who would call anything. But she got very lucky and managed wins we did not expect so we lost on second best what we won with her staying to the river on a pair of deuces. She built fine pots, however, and made it impossible for others to bluff or buy so the game was simple.
I played a while on the NL in poor position relative to two other guys who generally raised pots. Once I move to their left I did better. I did take a couple pots, but then my cards dried up. My A-3 two pair was beat with A-9 two pair and that reminded me that no matter how cheap, it is just not good to play those cards.
Ron has not played poker often and had a hard hit his first day at the track by playing too loose, but he is a quick learner and by the second visit was playing better than I was. He lost however, so I don't know if I have talked him into this as a gambling hobby.
We did have a dream table our first visit with a woman who would call anything. But she got very lucky and managed wins we did not expect so we lost on second best what we won with her staying to the river on a pair of deuces. She built fine pots, however, and made it impossible for others to bluff or buy so the game was simple.
Friday, January 15, 2010
Tampa Hard Rock
I went up on the bus to the Tampa Hard Rock yesterday. It is a long 5 hour round trip for just 5 hours of poker, but it fit my mood. I was sleepy enough to doze a bit on the way up and read the local paper and the NY Times. In the Times was a photo of struggling manatee and more notes on the crop failures here. That is projected to add a dollar a pound to the price of fruit in New York.
The bus is $25 and they give you $30 in free-play of which I realized $23. I played full play on a nickel slot and hit one good one. It is fun. With my own money I'd never play maximum, but I wanted not to waste poker time.
The poker machines were all busy. I did not see pay tables, but as I remember they were not very good. Still, to play a nice volatile double double bonus with my free play would have been my choice. Perhaps I'll make a habit of playing it all out first when I get there.
I lost at poker, down $128. It was a no limit game so that is a small variance although I was never up that much. I was very happy to feel so comfortable at this game. I was seated right away and in the first hour I had all but a few players figured. While most hands did not go to the river, this was a table of players who talked about what they had and also the strategy they would have used.
One was a liar.
The others were sincere and their talk would have helped me had I gotten many hands to play. Generally, I was out of the action.
Once in this period I had pocket aces and they were busted, but did not cost me too much. There were few all in betters and few who got caught stealing. I stole just one pot and not with an all in bet, but with just enough to push.
Three players at the table were generally in all action and one would bet third and fourth best hands. I watched a fellow with a second best hand try to push this guy out by over-betting and representing a nut hand. The fellow called the large bet with just a pair of pocket queens. There has been an Ace on the flop and other possibilities existed.
This fellow generally showed his cards when he did not have to, so we saw what he played. He was the fish at the table, but it did me no good. I did not win a single large hand from him and he bought in and played for about three hours.
He got lucky and caught a few straights, so if he bet out, he got respect. In fact, you could see in his body language when he had a nice straight and bet it.
From the other two I took small pots, but I think that I was seen too much as a rock and I had trouble deciding how much they might call.
I caught one in an all-in bet, but he did not have many chips left.
None of these fellows was very aggressive towards me. I trapped one, but just barely and not for all-in money even though he had a very good queen high flush. I had the ace high. The river put up yet another club and that scared him off an all in bet.
Eventually, all these fellows left broke, but I had not benefited too much.
Others who came in were better players, did not talk about their game much. They talked general poker talk and talked it in a way that let me know my opponents had changed.
I'd have left the table had I had more time to play and played a bit of limit, but by that time I did not have enough time to make leaving a reasonable decision. In Vegas, I'd have gone to supper. Here my only food was a free slice of pizza on my bus coupon and I ate that while standing in line to pay for it.
The lines here are incredible and because the place is packed with old people everything moves in slow motion. Most places I am an old guy. Here I am a youngster. To cash my $23 ticket out in one of the cashing machines too forever because figuring out what to do on the screen was a great puzzle to old woman after old woman.
"See the little money bad symbol, Ma'am? Well, you just touch that and your money will be dispensed."
I don't know what these old folks do to get to the bathroom. I am old enough that when it is time to head for the bathroom, I definitely need to get there, and my desire to get back to my poker game speeds me up as well. At the pace these folks travel, I'd never make it in time.
At Tampa, to walk even in fast designated lanes, reserved for walking, is like playing a video game around the daydreaming, sauntering folks and those who are having long conversations while blocking the traffic.
Oh, I know I'll get there my self one day and take my walker and stop, "for no apparent reason" as Vegas comic Big John says in his act.
Well, at least I hope to get there, and with a mind that can still play poker.
I did like seeing that I could read the tables and I hope that will allow me to employ good table selection in Vegas.
There were no real maniacs. I really don't know how to play those fellows. I get intimidated where every other hand is all in for all my chips. I better like the passive players, especially if they like to call and if they are easily read.
One of the poor players got in quite a row when the dealer mucked his cards. He was sitting in seat one, and something really strange happened. He had a pair of nines and bet and then suddenly he had 2-3off-suit .
No one admitted folding those cards.
Where did they come from?
The dealer was not supposed to look at the muck, but he did and there were pocket nines there, but he lied and said there was only one nine. I was in seat ten and could see easily what was there.
That dealer had missed moving the button to me, missed how many were in the hand, and made a few other small errors, so I could easily see believe that he had made the error.
The floor was called.
"Where did these two cards(2-3) come from?" he asked.
It was a strange judgement in my opinion.
It is common for seat one cards to be mucked if unprotected and out a bit toward the line. "Protect your hand," should have been the answer.
No one in the entire conversation suggested he do this.
When it was all over, and we were back to play, the fellow still did not protect his cards. I called over to him and told him he should put chips on his cards, or a card protector, but he was having none of it. I was, perhaps, the wrong guy to tell him since he was constantly at odds as to what to go when I bet out big on the river and had him beat after he had led the betting along the way, trying to push me. He was not going to take any suggestions from me.
I remembered one young fellow in Vegas in the same situation. The dealer got silently angry and just kept mucking his unprotected hand on purpose. The kid got pretty riled, but there too he would not use a card protector. Finally, he just left.
Well, my big lost hand was near the end of my visit. I had K-3 of spades and called twenty dollars with two spades on the flop. At the turn I also had a wheel draw. My opponent bet almost forty and I just decided to take a chance of hitting on the river.
I lost.
He showed pocket aces, trips with the board, so I was behind all the way and any board doubling would have made his hand. Any spade that did not double the board, or any four would have made mine. I could tell he did not have the ace of spades with another spade by the way he bet out. I folded the river bet.
The only thing I miss from the limit is the talking. In no limit there is so much to watch and evaluate and so much to think about. I am absolutely quiet. One of the poor players when I made a healthy river bet to try and take the pot, took a long while to wonder if I was bluffing. He asked me if I had a king, but by that time my eye contact was across the room, my poker face in place, and he could gather nothing from my expression. He folded his fifth best hand, but the next time I trapped him. I could see I was a huge frustration for him. Still I folded plenty of hands to him as well, when what were good cards went sour.
At limit, especially 2-4 I like to talk and joke and drink and have a bit of a party at the table. At no limit it is all just cards. Some no limit players can seem to do both well. I am not there yet. I need plenty of time to think and consider.
Also, these no limit games of ten are just an entirely different dance from the home game no limit we play with five or six in Schenectady every week. There we know each other, and fewer people and lower stakes makes it possible to play more hands.
I am hoping that Vegas will offer me both experiences when I stay on the strip in April. And pretty soon I hope I can start to win at no limit. Playing for five hours and being only one good hand or so behind is not a bad score, however.
The bus is $25 and they give you $30 in free-play of which I realized $23. I played full play on a nickel slot and hit one good one. It is fun. With my own money I'd never play maximum, but I wanted not to waste poker time.
The poker machines were all busy. I did not see pay tables, but as I remember they were not very good. Still, to play a nice volatile double double bonus with my free play would have been my choice. Perhaps I'll make a habit of playing it all out first when I get there.
I lost at poker, down $128. It was a no limit game so that is a small variance although I was never up that much. I was very happy to feel so comfortable at this game. I was seated right away and in the first hour I had all but a few players figured. While most hands did not go to the river, this was a table of players who talked about what they had and also the strategy they would have used.
One was a liar.
The others were sincere and their talk would have helped me had I gotten many hands to play. Generally, I was out of the action.
Once in this period I had pocket aces and they were busted, but did not cost me too much. There were few all in betters and few who got caught stealing. I stole just one pot and not with an all in bet, but with just enough to push.
Three players at the table were generally in all action and one would bet third and fourth best hands. I watched a fellow with a second best hand try to push this guy out by over-betting and representing a nut hand. The fellow called the large bet with just a pair of pocket queens. There has been an Ace on the flop and other possibilities existed.
This fellow generally showed his cards when he did not have to, so we saw what he played. He was the fish at the table, but it did me no good. I did not win a single large hand from him and he bought in and played for about three hours.
He got lucky and caught a few straights, so if he bet out, he got respect. In fact, you could see in his body language when he had a nice straight and bet it.
From the other two I took small pots, but I think that I was seen too much as a rock and I had trouble deciding how much they might call.
I caught one in an all-in bet, but he did not have many chips left.
None of these fellows was very aggressive towards me. I trapped one, but just barely and not for all-in money even though he had a very good queen high flush. I had the ace high. The river put up yet another club and that scared him off an all in bet.
Eventually, all these fellows left broke, but I had not benefited too much.
Others who came in were better players, did not talk about their game much. They talked general poker talk and talked it in a way that let me know my opponents had changed.
I'd have left the table had I had more time to play and played a bit of limit, but by that time I did not have enough time to make leaving a reasonable decision. In Vegas, I'd have gone to supper. Here my only food was a free slice of pizza on my bus coupon and I ate that while standing in line to pay for it.
The lines here are incredible and because the place is packed with old people everything moves in slow motion. Most places I am an old guy. Here I am a youngster. To cash my $23 ticket out in one of the cashing machines too forever because figuring out what to do on the screen was a great puzzle to old woman after old woman.
"See the little money bad symbol, Ma'am? Well, you just touch that and your money will be dispensed."
I don't know what these old folks do to get to the bathroom. I am old enough that when it is time to head for the bathroom, I definitely need to get there, and my desire to get back to my poker game speeds me up as well. At the pace these folks travel, I'd never make it in time.
At Tampa, to walk even in fast designated lanes, reserved for walking, is like playing a video game around the daydreaming, sauntering folks and those who are having long conversations while blocking the traffic.
Oh, I know I'll get there my self one day and take my walker and stop, "for no apparent reason" as Vegas comic Big John says in his act.
Well, at least I hope to get there, and with a mind that can still play poker.
I did like seeing that I could read the tables and I hope that will allow me to employ good table selection in Vegas.
There were no real maniacs. I really don't know how to play those fellows. I get intimidated where every other hand is all in for all my chips. I better like the passive players, especially if they like to call and if they are easily read.
One of the poor players got in quite a row when the dealer mucked his cards. He was sitting in seat one, and something really strange happened. He had a pair of nines and bet and then suddenly he had 2-3off-suit .
No one admitted folding those cards.
Where did they come from?
The dealer was not supposed to look at the muck, but he did and there were pocket nines there, but he lied and said there was only one nine. I was in seat ten and could see easily what was there.
That dealer had missed moving the button to me, missed how many were in the hand, and made a few other small errors, so I could easily see believe that he had made the error.
The floor was called.
"Where did these two cards(2-3) come from?" he asked.
It was a strange judgement in my opinion.
It is common for seat one cards to be mucked if unprotected and out a bit toward the line. "Protect your hand," should have been the answer.
No one in the entire conversation suggested he do this.
When it was all over, and we were back to play, the fellow still did not protect his cards. I called over to him and told him he should put chips on his cards, or a card protector, but he was having none of it. I was, perhaps, the wrong guy to tell him since he was constantly at odds as to what to go when I bet out big on the river and had him beat after he had led the betting along the way, trying to push me. He was not going to take any suggestions from me.
I remembered one young fellow in Vegas in the same situation. The dealer got silently angry and just kept mucking his unprotected hand on purpose. The kid got pretty riled, but there too he would not use a card protector. Finally, he just left.
Well, my big lost hand was near the end of my visit. I had K-3 of spades and called twenty dollars with two spades on the flop. At the turn I also had a wheel draw. My opponent bet almost forty and I just decided to take a chance of hitting on the river.
I lost.
He showed pocket aces, trips with the board, so I was behind all the way and any board doubling would have made his hand. Any spade that did not double the board, or any four would have made mine. I could tell he did not have the ace of spades with another spade by the way he bet out. I folded the river bet.
The only thing I miss from the limit is the talking. In no limit there is so much to watch and evaluate and so much to think about. I am absolutely quiet. One of the poor players when I made a healthy river bet to try and take the pot, took a long while to wonder if I was bluffing. He asked me if I had a king, but by that time my eye contact was across the room, my poker face in place, and he could gather nothing from my expression. He folded his fifth best hand, but the next time I trapped him. I could see I was a huge frustration for him. Still I folded plenty of hands to him as well, when what were good cards went sour.
At limit, especially 2-4 I like to talk and joke and drink and have a bit of a party at the table. At no limit it is all just cards. Some no limit players can seem to do both well. I am not there yet. I need plenty of time to think and consider.
Also, these no limit games of ten are just an entirely different dance from the home game no limit we play with five or six in Schenectady every week. There we know each other, and fewer people and lower stakes makes it possible to play more hands.
I am hoping that Vegas will offer me both experiences when I stay on the strip in April. And pretty soon I hope I can start to win at no limit. Playing for five hours and being only one good hand or so behind is not a bad score, however.
Wednesday, December 16, 2009
Last Gregg's game for me in 2009
Gregg writes: I lost as much this week as I won last week (I love/hate this game!)
Jerry has an important announcement which he said he'd share.
Game next Wednesday will begin at 1pm and end at midnight! (I get lucky after 6pm).
we'll have a second shift -- have or bring dinner and be ready to play
by 6pm (or of course come earlier.
Jerry writes:
GJerry adds his new address and contact information. I don't blog post those details. Contact him.
Ed writes:
One of the things I enjoy so much about Gregg's game is the diversity in personalities and how they tend to either delight or rub raw. I for one will miss you Jerry. I always was giggling inside as you did your best to get to Dewey in you're subtle way.
Oh Gregg, I love Diamonds!!!!
Hey Blowers can you chime in and give us the definition of "string bet"? Thanks Mr. Hollywood.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is an online definition.
http://www.pokertips.org/glossary/w/STRING+BET
The game discussion was whether after you clearly announced RAISE, you were still required to move all your raise money in at that same time.
Jerry said you did.
Dewey said his memory of lectures by dealers in casinos on string betting included this kind of line, "Once you say 'raise' you can move your chips in any way you want.
Ed thought he remembered that as well.
However, Jerry may be right in many places. What he objected to is called a "string raise"
http://dictionary.pokerzone.com/String+Raise
Perhaps my memory is more from the limit games. There, since the raise is clearly only a certain amount a "string raise" would not fool anyone acting afterward.
Of course, at Greg's game it is rarely a case of being fooled. We wait for the raiser. Greg rules that string raisers are allowed.
Actually, I think his ruling is somewhat like:
Quit talking about all this shit and deal the cards. Who cares?
Readers should also not confuse this with the famous "fold and raise" practice also fully allowed at Greg's games.
******************************************************************************************
Gregg wants me to write up the game .
We are packing to go South, so I'll have to make this game reflection a bit shorter than usual.
We had a fine game as usual. It is my last on in 2009, my last until March.
By then many of the players will have changed. Jerry got the job in South Carolina, so the rule czar is off to settle issues in another venue. Good luck, Jerry. Glad you found work and perhaps one day you will drift up here on a Wednesday and rejoin the old fellows.
Bruce came this week, but the cards went badly for him. He has trouble laying down second best and saving chips. He was busted early this week.
The new Phil was evident. What is happening! This guy took a huge number of pots again this week and left ahead.
Jerry left ahead $16 after an average game. I took him out when he was ahead of me with a heart flush on the river. He took me out when My flopped two pair beat his single Ace when he caught a queen on the river.
Peter did just fine, stacking chips and he did finally manage to risk less of his winnings and come out ahead for the day.
I came out $3 ahead. I only made two buy ins. Mostly I did not get cards and when I did I did not get callers.
I was more rested and alert, but I still muffed one. I turned before the betting was done. It was a three. Ed held a pair of threes. He was not happy to see his trip card shuffled back in the deck. Sorry Ed.
Greg was back to better concentration and play. He made some fine bets. But he lost money overall. Once he folded a jack of spades only to see the rest of the spade Royal work its way out on the board.
Casey joined us too and he had plenty to say about how the game was played. He won a bananna.
No quads this time as far as I remember.
Well, I will miss this game and be ready to come back to it in March. In the meantime, I'll keep up on my Ocala and Tampa games here on this blog, so check in once in a while and leave a comment.
I do have to review comments as the spammer who visits me everyday was making me work to erase comments. Now I can catch them before they post. But I love getting comments.
See all you guys in March except Jerry. Have a good time down South, Jer, don't let that humidity get to you, and enjoy the grits.
Jerry has an important announcement which he said he'd share.
Game next Wednesday will begin at 1pm and end at midnight! (I get lucky after 6pm).
we'll have a second shift -- have or bring dinner and be ready to play
by 6pm (or of course come earlier.
Jerry writes:
As most of you know I have been unemployed and looking for work for a little over a year. This week I was offered and accepted a position as Vice President for Business Operation and CFO at Coker College in Hartsville, South Carolina. If any of you are interested in learning more about Coker you can go to their website at www.coker.edu. The real exciting news is that my start date is January 18th (a little more than a month from now).
For those of you that don't know this move will take Cindy and I much closer to my parents who live in Wilmington, NC and my sister who lives in Winston-Salem, NC. Additionally, golf will be a twelve month opportunity in South Carolina, which is something that I will have to learn to live with. The hardest part of this move will be losing the second source of income that I have had during the last fifteen months playing in Greg's home game.
I have enjoyed knowing all of you.
*****
Jerry adds his new address and contact information. I don't blog post those details. Contact him if you would like it.
*****
Jerry adds his new address and contact information. I don't blog post those details. Contact him if you would like it.
GJerry adds his new address and contact information. I don't blog post those details. Contact him.
Ed writes:
One of the things I enjoy so much about Gregg's game is the diversity in personalities and how they tend to either delight or rub raw. I for one will miss you Jerry. I always was giggling inside as you did your best to get to Dewey in you're subtle way.
Oh Gregg, I love Diamonds!!!!
Hey Blowers can you chime in and give us the definition of "string bet"? Thanks Mr. Hollywood.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is an online definition.
http://www.pokertips.org/glossary/w/STRING+BET
The game discussion was whether after you clearly announced RAISE, you were still required to move all your raise money in at that same time.
Jerry said you did.
Dewey said his memory of lectures by dealers in casinos on string betting included this kind of line, "Once you say 'raise' you can move your chips in any way you want.
Ed thought he remembered that as well.
However, Jerry may be right in many places. What he objected to is called a "string raise"
http://dictionary.pokerzone.com/String+Raise
Perhaps my memory is more from the limit games. There, since the raise is clearly only a certain amount a "string raise" would not fool anyone acting afterward.
Of course, at Greg's game it is rarely a case of being fooled. We wait for the raiser. Greg rules that string raisers are allowed.
Actually, I think his ruling is somewhat like:
Quit talking about all this shit and deal the cards. Who cares?
Readers should also not confuse this with the famous "fold and raise" practice also fully allowed at Greg's games.
******************************************************************************************
Gregg wants me to write up the game .
We are packing to go South, so I'll have to make this game reflection a bit shorter than usual.
We had a fine game as usual. It is my last on in 2009, my last until March.
By then many of the players will have changed. Jerry got the job in South Carolina, so the rule czar is off to settle issues in another venue. Good luck, Jerry. Glad you found work and perhaps one day you will drift up here on a Wednesday and rejoin the old fellows.
Bruce came this week, but the cards went badly for him. He has trouble laying down second best and saving chips. He was busted early this week.
The new Phil was evident. What is happening! This guy took a huge number of pots again this week and left ahead.
Jerry left ahead $16 after an average game. I took him out when he was ahead of me with a heart flush on the river. He took me out when My flopped two pair beat his single Ace when he caught a queen on the river.
Peter did just fine, stacking chips and he did finally manage to risk less of his winnings and come out ahead for the day.
I came out $3 ahead. I only made two buy ins. Mostly I did not get cards and when I did I did not get callers.
I was more rested and alert, but I still muffed one. I turned before the betting was done. It was a three. Ed held a pair of threes. He was not happy to see his trip card shuffled back in the deck. Sorry Ed.
Greg was back to better concentration and play. He made some fine bets. But he lost money overall. Once he folded a jack of spades only to see the rest of the spade Royal work its way out on the board.
Casey joined us too and he had plenty to say about how the game was played. He won a bananna.
No quads this time as far as I remember.
Well, I will miss this game and be ready to come back to it in March. In the meantime, I'll keep up on my Ocala and Tampa games here on this blog, so check in once in a while and leave a comment.
I do have to review comments as the spammer who visits me everyday was making me work to erase comments. Now I can catch them before they post. But I love getting comments.
See all you guys in March except Jerry. Have a good time down South, Jer, don't let that humidity get to you, and enjoy the grits.
Thursday, December 10, 2009
GREGG'S WINTER WONDERLAND GAME
The roads were mean Wednesday.
Certainly this would be average driving in Buffalo, but the average drivers here have not driven in Buffalo and that makes it dangerous.
At Best and 43 after driving Best on the side of the road not yet plowed, I had to get a running start to push over the plowed wall left blocking the road by some idiot roadcrew. It took me a while to trigger the light. I inched forward until I hit the laser gun.
Main highways were okay, but you could never tell, and drivers were still thinking it was summer. Few understood the advantage of stopping distance.
I dropped some things to Peter in Colonie and his road was totally unplowed. I backed out of it rather than try to turn around.
Then I hit Lisa Kill road. It was the worst. I slipped coming down, but did not slide away. However, at the end when I had to turn left I could see it was not going to go well. So I waited until all the cars from any direction were gone. Good thing too as just turning left from a stop I drifted off to a snowbank and had to back up and try again. Luckily no Colonie drivers were coming from my right. They'd have sat on their horns and plowed into me.
Gregg's road was clean and clear except for about twenty kids having a snowball fight across the street and only giving us a narrow goal post through the crowd.
I suppose some of them drive as well as play in the street.
That would explain things experienced on the road.
None of us killed any of Gregg's neighbors.
There was some questioning of the judgements when the schools closed the night before, but Springville got a similar storm, did not close, and had the superintendent giving apology after about seven bus fender benders.
I could see how much the kids would be in danger just from watching play them in the streets.
I expected a poor poker turn out, but we had a well attended game, including John. I took a few hands from him early on and then my tray began to drain away.
After $90 buy in, the tide started to turn for me and I left up $51, for my first session win in a while.
I can't remember all the hands. Perhaps others will add some.
I do remember playing John's favorite 7-5 against John's 5-2 and both of us catching on the river. I loved beating him with his favorite rag.
Later a 7-3 gave me a low pair of sevens against John's bluffed pair of fives. He bet thirteen on turn and 27 on river, and I stayed with him. I thought he had a busted flush draw.
Against Jerry I caught an inside straight on the river and I caught a pair of jacks on the river, and that was fun. I stayed with the inside draw just in the hope I could frustrate him. Watching his countenance harden and his eyes roll is better than winning the chips.
My game was a Comedy of Errors. With no coffee and very little sleep, I soon started to crumble.
My worst error:
I held Jack-X of diamonds and three diamonds came on the flop.
I bet and I'm called by Jerry.
The turn is a diamond and that is a disappointment for me as I expect that Jerry, if he stays at all, holds a high diamond.
"Well," I announce as I turn over my cards," I have a jack high."
"Well, " John says, "You also have the river yet to come. Check or bet?"
Jerry is happy. He likes us to show in turn. He likes us to avoid a slow roll. I've done both very early, so there is no confusion.
No more betting and I win. Maybe Jerry had two low diamonds. If so, I lost money.
My second worst error is not to go all in when I have the nut straight and can bet second. I did this at Foxwoods once too. It was my only error that day, but I did not play tired at Foxwoods, so I suspect I just need to double check all straights before I bet. Here it cost me money from John.
Jerry left at his normal time. He had gained a good tray, and then it drained to a couple rows and John took him out. It just seemed Jerry did not get cards.
Phil is used to just that pattern of early gains lost back in the end, but today Phil was really very hard to figure and he collected plenty of pots with good play as well as some luck. He did lose a bit toward the end, but he left ahead, and he left many of us wondering just how to play against him next week.
"I am beginning to learn how you play," Phil said to John.
"Don't tell him that; he'll change up," I admonished, and Phil chuckled.
It was clear Phil had learned how to change up his own patterns. He told us he is more dangerous once he accumulates some chips. He was dangerous this week.
Greg did not seem himself. Pokermaster cannot gain control of the table. John undermines Gregg's aggression.
"Come on Millett; get a grip!"
No head cold. No computer. No excuses this week.
(I wrote this before I learned that he took Blowers in head to head after I left, and regained his Pokermaster title- see below)
Bruce was missing. That certainly changed the game. We can usually count on Bruce to reduce the bluffing by calling if he has a pair.
This left Blowers free to run his mucka jucka, game except he had run it last week and trapped me in a way everyone remembered. So now perhaps he would mucka jucka when he was not trapping but bluffing, but perhaps, too, we all would know that today he would wait for the bluff to mucka jucka.
It was like that verbal game you played as a child.
"I know," you'd say.
"I know you know," your annoying little brother would answer.
"I know you know that I know, "you'd respond.
"I know............... " well, you get the picture.
Only in poker at some point we all have to bet (or in Blowers case decide to mucka jucka) on some level of "I know."
I lost a big hand last week when he did mucka jucka to trap with the nut. This week, based on that disingenuous play, I lost money by not betting when he was not trapping, and again on a high hand but not the nut. So that one mucka jucka has awarded a good pile of chips to John.
AND THIS ATROCITY NEEDS TO STOP!!
STOP THE MUCKA JUCKA CHIP GENOCIDE!
END MUCKA JUKA QUARK STAR POKER TODAY.
DON'T BE SUCKED IN BY BLOWER'S BREMSSTRAHLUNG EMISSIONS.
HE IS NOT A TRUE SUN, BUT STRANGE MATTER THAT NEEDS TO BE CONTAINED BEFORE IT DEVOURS THE UNIVERSE.
EVEN THE PLAYERS ON MARS KNOW THE DANGERS AND ARE TAKING IMMEDIATE ACTION.
LEARNING THE RULES AND STRATEGY
The first chance I got, I showed out of turn my winning pair of kings after two rounds of checks and Jerry put on his face.
Ah.....this is the way to play the game.
Jerry then tried to slow the game by betting slowly, but his heart was not in it.
Hard to do that when it is easy for me to start a conversation with John that is as much fun as the poker itself.
Also, a slower game this week would have helped me in my mental disfunction a great deal. It would give me time to chew a bit of gum, take a breath, walk a bit.
On showing out of turn, Jerry thought my research supported his position.
I told him it supported Slink's position, not his.
I was never really in that position again to show early a well checked hand.
In fact, I was more often folding hands I would not show, especially winning hands.
Very little other rule issues. We did notice that the failure to collect chips into the pot after a betting round caused confusion and error on more than one occasion. Missed ya Bruce.
THOUGHTS ON MISSED BLINDS
Gregg did not do computer today, but there were visits that took him out of the game and Jerry made sure he posted missed blinds. Remember, Gregg, that you can always just wait for the blind to come around, especially when you get socked for two chips.
John waited when he telephoned.
Also, remember you are the house and can change that rule anytime you like.
HOW THEY PLAY IN THE CASINO
Often it is mentioned that in the casinos the rules of play are such and such and this and that.
In the future, I intend to offer up my opinions on how they pay on Mars as well.
True, I have never actually played on Mars, but not having played in a place does not seem to hinder folks from offering up definitive casino floor judgements.
John brings to the table casino play very different from anyone at the table. He knows no limit casino play.
I learned some things watching him play NL at Turning Stone one night and early morning.
Mucka Jucka was my lesson of last week and I used it at Foxwoods limit poker this week when my A-K caught two pair on the turn. I just made a face and sighed. It was small mucka jucka, but it was enough. My opponent called me twice.
This week John taught us how and perhaps why to bet or check in the dark. This is a much better skill than the blind straddle which John teaches us just for the fun of it. I am really interested because I think of it as a better strategy for limit games, although I often think it is a way for the regular casino rocks to signal their buddies to drop out.
We are playing double or more live straddles, but at Foxwoods they only allow a second regular straddle. Oh, they also play that way on Mars as well.
Only a live straddle cannot act last in round one of betting.
http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/questions/live-straddle.htm
Except in Martian casinos where a live straddle includes..........well, never mind, there may be children reading.
Also RE: Foxwoods. Last week we were talking about their policy to take a timed rake of $5 every half hour, but no pot rake. They have changed that even on no limit games and now they rake. I have trouble leaving the 4-8 limit there, but perhaps I'll try a NL someday.
With Jerry gone the game generally doubles in speed, and so the crumbling of my mind speeds up as well.
But by concentrating on just my cards and letting all other errors simply be there, I manage to play well enough, get lucky, and in the end, I left $51 ahead.
I almost quit early down $80 in spite of the fact that I had no where to go. I was off to the Albany sleep clinic at seven to get wired up for an overnight of feeling like an android while people watch me sleep. Now there is a job I would hate. Imagine having to work all night long and stay alert while you watch people sleep.
The sleep study went well.
I am recalibrated and perhaps that will make me more alert for the next poker game.
Which Gregg reminds us is at Bobby Court again next Wednesday.
See you there.
Bueno suerte!
**************************************************************************************
HOW GREGG RELEARNS TO PLAY AND LEARNS NOT TO GO TO THE BATHROOM
and $10 more and $10 more and $10 more and $10 more and $10 more and $10 more Then the tide turned! At 10pm, John had to rebuy -- we set the buy-in at $20. and rebuy and rebuy and rebuy and rebuy And go home happy, but empty-handed at 12:15pm
Certainly this would be average driving in Buffalo, but the average drivers here have not driven in Buffalo and that makes it dangerous.
At Best and 43 after driving Best on the side of the road not yet plowed, I had to get a running start to push over the plowed wall left blocking the road by some idiot roadcrew. It took me a while to trigger the light. I inched forward until I hit the laser gun.
Main highways were okay, but you could never tell, and drivers were still thinking it was summer. Few understood the advantage of stopping distance.
I dropped some things to Peter in Colonie and his road was totally unplowed. I backed out of it rather than try to turn around.
Then I hit Lisa Kill road. It was the worst. I slipped coming down, but did not slide away. However, at the end when I had to turn left I could see it was not going to go well. So I waited until all the cars from any direction were gone. Good thing too as just turning left from a stop I drifted off to a snowbank and had to back up and try again. Luckily no Colonie drivers were coming from my right. They'd have sat on their horns and plowed into me.
Gregg's road was clean and clear except for about twenty kids having a snowball fight across the street and only giving us a narrow goal post through the crowd.
I suppose some of them drive as well as play in the street.
That would explain things experienced on the road.
None of us killed any of Gregg's neighbors.
There was some questioning of the judgements when the schools closed the night before, but Springville got a similar storm, did not close, and had the superintendent giving apology after about seven bus fender benders.
I could see how much the kids would be in danger just from watching play them in the streets.
I expected a poor poker turn out, but we had a well attended game, including John. I took a few hands from him early on and then my tray began to drain away.
After $90 buy in, the tide started to turn for me and I left up $51, for my first session win in a while.
I can't remember all the hands. Perhaps others will add some.
I do remember playing John's favorite 7-5 against John's 5-2 and both of us catching on the river. I loved beating him with his favorite rag.
Later a 7-3 gave me a low pair of sevens against John's bluffed pair of fives. He bet thirteen on turn and 27 on river, and I stayed with him. I thought he had a busted flush draw.
Against Jerry I caught an inside straight on the river and I caught a pair of jacks on the river, and that was fun. I stayed with the inside draw just in the hope I could frustrate him. Watching his countenance harden and his eyes roll is better than winning the chips.
My game was a Comedy of Errors. With no coffee and very little sleep, I soon started to crumble.
My worst error:
I held Jack-X of diamonds and three diamonds came on the flop.
I bet and I'm called by Jerry.
The turn is a diamond and that is a disappointment for me as I expect that Jerry, if he stays at all, holds a high diamond.
"Well," I announce as I turn over my cards," I have a jack high."
"Well, " John says, "You also have the river yet to come. Check or bet?"
Jerry is happy. He likes us to show in turn. He likes us to avoid a slow roll. I've done both very early, so there is no confusion.
No more betting and I win. Maybe Jerry had two low diamonds. If so, I lost money.
My second worst error is not to go all in when I have the nut straight and can bet second. I did this at Foxwoods once too. It was my only error that day, but I did not play tired at Foxwoods, so I suspect I just need to double check all straights before I bet. Here it cost me money from John.
Jerry left at his normal time. He had gained a good tray, and then it drained to a couple rows and John took him out. It just seemed Jerry did not get cards.
Phil is used to just that pattern of early gains lost back in the end, but today Phil was really very hard to figure and he collected plenty of pots with good play as well as some luck. He did lose a bit toward the end, but he left ahead, and he left many of us wondering just how to play against him next week.
"I am beginning to learn how you play," Phil said to John.
"Don't tell him that; he'll change up," I admonished, and Phil chuckled.
It was clear Phil had learned how to change up his own patterns. He told us he is more dangerous once he accumulates some chips. He was dangerous this week.
Greg did not seem himself. Pokermaster cannot gain control of the table. John undermines Gregg's aggression.
"Come on Millett; get a grip!"
No head cold. No computer. No excuses this week.
(I wrote this before I learned that he took Blowers in head to head after I left, and regained his Pokermaster title- see below)
Bruce was missing. That certainly changed the game. We can usually count on Bruce to reduce the bluffing by calling if he has a pair.
This left Blowers free to run his mucka jucka, game except he had run it last week and trapped me in a way everyone remembered. So now perhaps he would mucka jucka when he was not trapping but bluffing, but perhaps, too, we all would know that today he would wait for the bluff to mucka jucka.
It was like that verbal game you played as a child.
"I know," you'd say.
"I know you know," your annoying little brother would answer.
"I know you know that I know, "you'd respond.
"I know............... " well, you get the picture.
Only in poker at some point we all have to bet (or in Blowers case decide to mucka jucka) on some level of "I know."
I lost a big hand last week when he did mucka jucka to trap with the nut. This week, based on that disingenuous play, I lost money by not betting when he was not trapping, and again on a high hand but not the nut. So that one mucka jucka has awarded a good pile of chips to John.
AND THIS ATROCITY NEEDS TO STOP!!
STOP THE MUCKA JUCKA CHIP GENOCIDE!
END MUCKA JUKA QUARK STAR POKER TODAY.
DON'T BE SUCKED IN BY BLOWER'S BREMSSTRAHLUNG EMISSIONS.
HE IS NOT A TRUE SUN, BUT STRANGE MATTER THAT NEEDS TO BE CONTAINED BEFORE IT DEVOURS THE UNIVERSE.
EVEN THE PLAYERS ON MARS KNOW THE DANGERS AND ARE TAKING IMMEDIATE ACTION.
LEARNING THE RULES AND STRATEGY
The first chance I got, I showed out of turn my winning pair of kings after two rounds of checks and Jerry put on his face.
Ah.....this is the way to play the game.
Jerry then tried to slow the game by betting slowly, but his heart was not in it.
Hard to do that when it is easy for me to start a conversation with John that is as much fun as the poker itself.
Also, a slower game this week would have helped me in my mental disfunction a great deal. It would give me time to chew a bit of gum, take a breath, walk a bit.
On showing out of turn, Jerry thought my research supported his position.
I told him it supported Slink's position, not his.
I was never really in that position again to show early a well checked hand.
In fact, I was more often folding hands I would not show, especially winning hands.
Very little other rule issues. We did notice that the failure to collect chips into the pot after a betting round caused confusion and error on more than one occasion. Missed ya Bruce.
THOUGHTS ON MISSED BLINDS
Gregg did not do computer today, but there were visits that took him out of the game and Jerry made sure he posted missed blinds. Remember, Gregg, that you can always just wait for the blind to come around, especially when you get socked for two chips.
John waited when he telephoned.
Also, remember you are the house and can change that rule anytime you like.
HOW THEY PLAY IN THE CASINO
Often it is mentioned that in the casinos the rules of play are such and such and this and that.
In the future, I intend to offer up my opinions on how they pay on Mars as well.
True, I have never actually played on Mars, but not having played in a place does not seem to hinder folks from offering up definitive casino floor judgements.
John brings to the table casino play very different from anyone at the table. He knows no limit casino play.
I learned some things watching him play NL at Turning Stone one night and early morning.
Mucka Jucka was my lesson of last week and I used it at Foxwoods limit poker this week when my A-K caught two pair on the turn. I just made a face and sighed. It was small mucka jucka, but it was enough. My opponent called me twice.
This week John taught us how and perhaps why to bet or check in the dark. This is a much better skill than the blind straddle which John teaches us just for the fun of it. I am really interested because I think of it as a better strategy for limit games, although I often think it is a way for the regular casino rocks to signal their buddies to drop out.
We are playing double or more live straddles, but at Foxwoods they only allow a second regular straddle. Oh, they also play that way on Mars as well.
Only a live straddle cannot act last in round one of betting.
http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/questions/live-straddle.htm
Except in Martian casinos where a live straddle includes..........well, never mind, there may be children reading.
Also RE: Foxwoods. Last week we were talking about their policy to take a timed rake of $5 every half hour, but no pot rake. They have changed that even on no limit games and now they rake. I have trouble leaving the 4-8 limit there, but perhaps I'll try a NL someday.
With Jerry gone the game generally doubles in speed, and so the crumbling of my mind speeds up as well.
But by concentrating on just my cards and letting all other errors simply be there, I manage to play well enough, get lucky, and in the end, I left $51 ahead.
I almost quit early down $80 in spite of the fact that I had no where to go. I was off to the Albany sleep clinic at seven to get wired up for an overnight of feeling like an android while people watch me sleep. Now there is a job I would hate. Imagine having to work all night long and stay alert while you watch people sleep.
The sleep study went well.
I am recalibrated and perhaps that will make me more alert for the next poker game.
Which Gregg reminds us is at Bobby Court again next Wednesday.
See you there.
Bueno suerte!
**************************************************************************************
HOW GREGG RELEARNS TO PLAY AND LEARNS NOT TO GO TO THE BATHROOM
Five made the table today, at least til 6pm then it was just Blowers and Millett. In one-half hour John took Gregg's full tray and Gregg bought in for $10 more.
It was great speed poker for over 6 hours. Best hand was my pocket aces and an ace on the flop -- we both bet pretty hard, then an ace on the turn -- "have I got him by the nuts now." It's all in and I show my four aces. John lays down a royal heart flush. Gregg asks, Does that beat my four aces?. Sure does says John. Gregg says, that's the most amazing fucking hand I have ever seen. John says "yea, I put it together while you were in the bathroom!
******************************************************************************************************************
JOHN ADDS A LINK
******************************************************************************************************************
JOHN ADDS A LINK
Gregg - great game yesterday. Thanks for the heads up session...great fun. Maybe next time I'll river the straight flush for real!
Dewey - here's the link to the article you were unable to read while we were playing yesterday (good luck with that whole walking/chewing gum thing):
click on this link and flip to p 82: http://imagsonline.com/pokerpro200912/
John
************************************************************************
ED ADDS
I told you he cheats Gregg. Well, at least this time he owned up to it :)
********************************************************************************************
And just in case anyone who has not attended out weekly games, gets the wrong impression. Honesty is the one thing we don't have to argue about. As much as we may banter the rules, we can trust our opponents to play and respect an honest game. That is an advantage over the casinos as well.
Wednesday, December 2, 2009
GREGG'S FIRST DECEMBER GAME
Good attendance at Gregg's game as Robin and Slink came out of hiding and so kept the numbers up despite Jerry's absence.
It was another loss for me at Gregg's and again based on a single hand. This time I was trying to swim upstream. I held pocket queens, and ace came on the flop and I still called Gregg's all-in bet. Well, no queen came, and just to rub salt in the wound, another ace showed on the turn. So that meant I left a loser rather than a winner.
I was never up today at all, sometimes I was even.
Bruce lost and left early. Not a good week for him.
Did you leave money as well Phil?
Peter racked up his three rows of chips, but Peter always hates to leave with money, so he plays a double or nothing game and finally Ed took him out catching a single queen for a pair of queens on the river backed with a board pair of 8's and calling Peter's all-in to win the last rack.
Oh, well.
Peter has been pretty lucky in life lately so what's a few dollars?
Peter beat me once with four sixes when I had a good full house, but he only made a value bet.
Gregg has not been at his best. He lost a little as well. without my poor poker at the end, he would have lost a lot.
It was good to see Gregg's cold has gone, but his computer work while trying to play must take a toll on his game. He rarely sees how other players make their bets, so the game then is cards and not people.
So grab another computer, would ya Gregg?
"
I think everyone lost except Ed.
Ed racked up so many chips he was complaining that they were in his way, obstructing his play.
Poor Guy!!
There was some friendly banter and holiday wishes all around.
And thankfully, even without Jerry or Bill, someone arrived who could once again wonder what the poker rule actually is on who shows first.
I was so overjoyed to have this discussion once again.
I miss it if it doesn't come up.
Slink contends that whatever the rule on who should show first, it is the choice of anyone to show out of order if they like, and only those with cards have much say in the matter.
That fits with my casino visits and experience.
Blowers has noted in the past that it is quite common for the last person checking after a check-around to just show a pair which he thinks is the winning hand, but that he does not want to bet. this is even more true if the last two rounds were void of any bets.
This fits perfectly with my casino experience.
Generally, if no one has played the trash that they held, we don't gain much information by holding up the game to find out what it was.
If I am in that position at casinos with say a king in my hand and one on the board, I'll often say " Well, I have a king." Those who don't have anything more than my pair and have not bet in a round or two (so have not bluffed) hold cards from which I can extract practically no important information and I'd like the game to move along.
Of course any looking to check raise or trap will show the winning hand.
Bill and Jerry are sticklers for showing "in turn" and 90% of the time I go along just to keep them at ease, just as 90% of the time I manage to deal when it is my turn, keep my chips from falling off the table, etc. I don't follow any rule 100% of the time.
It is especially hard for me too if I have recently come from a casino game to remember that it matters to those without cards how I show mine and I'll get a lecture if I don't wait and just grab the pot to keep the game rolling.
Lately, I've been thinking that following this rule just to keep those without cards from being ill at ease, is a mistake.
Why should I want my opponents at ease anyway?
Of course, anyone with cards who has called a bet always can simply wait until the called player shows.
In casinos where I want to see the other guy's cards, I just look at him and say, " I called you, sir," and wait.
In no limit games the dealer will also remind him he needs to show first.
In 2-4 limit the dealer will just say, "Come on, turn em up," in an effort to speed things up and get more tips per hour.
Again, all casinos are different and any single casino will do different things at different times. Often a "rule" depends on the whim of the dealer unless you want to call the floor person over and get a ruling.
Or if you have a lot of guts, you can look the dealer in the eye after winning a big hand and say,
"I'll tip again when everyone is asked to show in turn."
Here is a good discussion of who should show first that reveals some of the complexities:
http://www.1struleofpoker.com/2007/04/who_shows_their_hand_first_in.html
Here is a couple of simple rule guides that support Bill's/ Jerry's position
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070718191651AAAzvJi
http://www.pokerjunkie.com/how-the-betting-works-in-poker
As we know, laws are not really very important unless there is some way to enforce them. I take my opponents chips or insult a player, casinos will eject me. No one who does not follow the show in turn rule would get even a lecture from the dealer. At Gregg's, well. what is the worst that can happen?
Finally, the rule that all casinos honor is that any player who called to the river (in some casinos any player at the table who was dealt cards) can ask to see any two cards, even those that a player mucks.
The dealer will then attempt in most cases to keep them out of mixing into the muck and will turn them over.
That's right. There is no right to muck.
While it is a player's right ask to see, it is also an insult because the rule is there to bring out into the open players who are betting on nothing in a effort to build a pot for a buddy who has signaled that he has the nut, or a strong winning hand.
Even in limit games this collusion can put a squeeze on second best player by allowing raise after raise. In no limit games it is a deadly collusion. A good description of this can be found in Andy Bellin's book POKER NATION. Andy was a poker cheat for a number of years and the book is the story of his scams, this being one.
However, I have often seen this rule used just so a player can get information.
For example, I sat down at Foxwoods, caught trip deuces on the flop, raised until the river, and then was beat with a straight. I was new to the table and the fellow next to me wanted to see what I played, so he asked to see my two cards and the dealer turned them over.
Generally, the player who is forced not to muck will get insulted and grumble for a couple hours. S/he might also afterwards call to see every two cards possible on the person who asked to see cards that the player intended to muck.
In practice, I rarely see this rule employed and you do want to be careful. Often if the two cards were going to be folded, but actually would have beaten the caller's cards, the pot is given to the player with the best cards in spite of the intention to muck. Son Keith had this happen outside Chicago and lost a pot of about $300 just because he wanted to see what a super loose player had when he called to the river. It turned out to be a full house that the player not noticed and intended for the muck.
Well, I hope all of those so fascinated with this rule, as I am, have managed to read this far. I'll be happy to post your rebuttals here where we have all the time in world to keep having this discussion.
However, I also know that researching answers and writing is not quite as much fun as raising rule issues at each game.
And Jerry, you can see you missed a good game and a huge opportunity to perseverate .
Jerry might paraphrase Amarillo Slim:
"Poker is a game of rules... It's not the hand I hold, it's the rules that I play with"
I'm off to Foxwoods to play some limit poker early next week. Elizabeth has actually agreed to come along. She'll hang in the spa while I play poker. Maybe we'll catch a show. We have free nights at MGM. That is a mystery to me as I have never dropped a nickle there.
At Foxwoods the grumblers will also have some fun with the rules, but the dealer will decide, or the floor will be called, and anyone who keeps arguing forever will be asked to leave. I hate the rake, but I like that as well as the free Myers Rum or Johnny Walker Black or coffee with amaretto.
I expect next week will be my last week, if I make that one. By April I'll be chomping at the bit to play at Gregg's. It is a long time without a game. However, I should manage some no limit at the horse track or some limit at Ocala where they have a 50 cent 1 dollar limit game. Florida is a low rollers dream. By state law the max no limit buy in is 100 dollars so if I show up as the games begin, it is a long while before I can get bullied out.
So Happy Holidays to everyone.
****************************************************************************************
SLINK adds:
I'm proud to say I avoided the Ed steamroller and walked away up $5. I enjoyed Dewey's calm dissertation on the who shows first rules. It's clear he loves to discuss this and we had a delightful conversation during our game yesterday regarding this. I'm looking forward to further discussing the nuances of this issue the next time we play together
****************************************************************************************
BLOWERS ADDS:
good read, Dewey - and congrats for using 'perseverate' correctly!
next Gregg game I wander into (hopefully the 16th) I'm angling for both 2/7
bonus and the 'show one' when a pot is won uncontested...'tis the season,
after all :)
********************************************************************************************
GREGG ADDS
It was another loss for me at Gregg's and again based on a single hand. This time I was trying to swim upstream. I held pocket queens, and ace came on the flop and I still called Gregg's all-in bet. Well, no queen came, and just to rub salt in the wound, another ace showed on the turn. So that meant I left a loser rather than a winner.
I was never up today at all, sometimes I was even.
Bruce lost and left early. Not a good week for him.
Did you leave money as well Phil?
Peter racked up his three rows of chips, but Peter always hates to leave with money, so he plays a double or nothing game and finally Ed took him out catching a single queen for a pair of queens on the river backed with a board pair of 8's and calling Peter's all-in to win the last rack.
Oh, well.
Peter has been pretty lucky in life lately so what's a few dollars?
Peter beat me once with four sixes when I had a good full house, but he only made a value bet.
Gregg has not been at his best. He lost a little as well. without my poor poker at the end, he would have lost a lot.
It was good to see Gregg's cold has gone, but his computer work while trying to play must take a toll on his game. He rarely sees how other players make their bets, so the game then is cards and not people.
So grab another computer, would ya Gregg?
"
I think everyone lost except Ed.
Ed racked up so many chips he was complaining that they were in his way, obstructing his play.
Poor Guy!!
There was some friendly banter and holiday wishes all around.
And thankfully, even without Jerry or Bill, someone arrived who could once again wonder what the poker rule actually is on who shows first.
I was so overjoyed to have this discussion once again.
I miss it if it doesn't come up.
Slink contends that whatever the rule on who should show first, it is the choice of anyone to show out of order if they like, and only those with cards have much say in the matter.
That fits with my casino visits and experience.
Blowers has noted in the past that it is quite common for the last person checking after a check-around to just show a pair which he thinks is the winning hand, but that he does not want to bet. this is even more true if the last two rounds were void of any bets.
This fits perfectly with my casino experience.
Generally, if no one has played the trash that they held, we don't gain much information by holding up the game to find out what it was.
If I am in that position at casinos with say a king in my hand and one on the board, I'll often say " Well, I have a king." Those who don't have anything more than my pair and have not bet in a round or two (so have not bluffed) hold cards from which I can extract practically no important information and I'd like the game to move along.
Of course any looking to check raise or trap will show the winning hand.
Bill and Jerry are sticklers for showing "in turn" and 90% of the time I go along just to keep them at ease, just as 90% of the time I manage to deal when it is my turn, keep my chips from falling off the table, etc. I don't follow any rule 100% of the time.
It is especially hard for me too if I have recently come from a casino game to remember that it matters to those without cards how I show mine and I'll get a lecture if I don't wait and just grab the pot to keep the game rolling.
Lately, I've been thinking that following this rule just to keep those without cards from being ill at ease, is a mistake.
Why should I want my opponents at ease anyway?
Of course, anyone with cards who has called a bet always can simply wait until the called player shows.
In casinos where I want to see the other guy's cards, I just look at him and say, " I called you, sir," and wait.
In no limit games the dealer will also remind him he needs to show first.
In 2-4 limit the dealer will just say, "Come on, turn em up," in an effort to speed things up and get more tips per hour.
Again, all casinos are different and any single casino will do different things at different times. Often a "rule" depends on the whim of the dealer unless you want to call the floor person over and get a ruling.
Or if you have a lot of guts, you can look the dealer in the eye after winning a big hand and say,
"I'll tip again when everyone is asked to show in turn."
Here is a good discussion of who should show first that reveals some of the complexities:
http://www.1struleofpoker.com/2007/04/who_shows_their_hand_first_in.html
Here is a couple of simple rule guides that support Bill's/ Jerry's position
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070718191651AAAzvJi
http://www.pokerjunkie.com/how-the-betting-works-in-poker
As we know, laws are not really very important unless there is some way to enforce them. I take my opponents chips or insult a player, casinos will eject me. No one who does not follow the show in turn rule would get even a lecture from the dealer. At Gregg's, well. what is the worst that can happen?
Finally, the rule that all casinos honor is that any player who called to the river (in some casinos any player at the table who was dealt cards) can ask to see any two cards, even those that a player mucks.
The dealer will then attempt in most cases to keep them out of mixing into the muck and will turn them over.
That's right. There is no right to muck.
While it is a player's right ask to see, it is also an insult because the rule is there to bring out into the open players who are betting on nothing in a effort to build a pot for a buddy who has signaled that he has the nut, or a strong winning hand.
Even in limit games this collusion can put a squeeze on second best player by allowing raise after raise. In no limit games it is a deadly collusion. A good description of this can be found in Andy Bellin's book POKER NATION. Andy was a poker cheat for a number of years and the book is the story of his scams, this being one.
However, I have often seen this rule used just so a player can get information.
For example, I sat down at Foxwoods, caught trip deuces on the flop, raised until the river, and then was beat with a straight. I was new to the table and the fellow next to me wanted to see what I played, so he asked to see my two cards and the dealer turned them over.
Generally, the player who is forced not to muck will get insulted and grumble for a couple hours. S/he might also afterwards call to see every two cards possible on the person who asked to see cards that the player intended to muck.
In practice, I rarely see this rule employed and you do want to be careful. Often if the two cards were going to be folded, but actually would have beaten the caller's cards, the pot is given to the player with the best cards in spite of the intention to muck. Son Keith had this happen outside Chicago and lost a pot of about $300 just because he wanted to see what a super loose player had when he called to the river. It turned out to be a full house that the player not noticed and intended for the muck.
Well, I hope all of those so fascinated with this rule, as I am, have managed to read this far. I'll be happy to post your rebuttals here where we have all the time in world to keep having this discussion.
However, I also know that researching answers and writing is not quite as much fun as raising rule issues at each game.
And Jerry, you can see you missed a good game and a huge opportunity to perseverate .
Jerry might paraphrase Amarillo Slim:
"Poker is a game of rules... It's not the hand I hold, it's the rules that I play with"
I'm off to Foxwoods to play some limit poker early next week. Elizabeth has actually agreed to come along. She'll hang in the spa while I play poker. Maybe we'll catch a show. We have free nights at MGM. That is a mystery to me as I have never dropped a nickle there.
At Foxwoods the grumblers will also have some fun with the rules, but the dealer will decide, or the floor will be called, and anyone who keeps arguing forever will be asked to leave. I hate the rake, but I like that as well as the free Myers Rum or Johnny Walker Black or coffee with amaretto.
I expect next week will be my last week, if I make that one. By April I'll be chomping at the bit to play at Gregg's. It is a long time without a game. However, I should manage some no limit at the horse track or some limit at Ocala where they have a 50 cent 1 dollar limit game. Florida is a low rollers dream. By state law the max no limit buy in is 100 dollars so if I show up as the games begin, it is a long while before I can get bullied out.
So Happy Holidays to everyone.
****************************************************************************************
SLINK adds:
I'm proud to say I avoided the Ed steamroller and walked away up $5. I enjoyed Dewey's calm dissertation on the who shows first rules. It's clear he loves to discuss this and we had a delightful conversation during our game yesterday regarding this. I'm looking forward to further discussing the nuances of this issue the next time we play together
****************************************************************************************
BLOWERS ADDS:
good read, Dewey - and congrats for using 'perseverate' correctly!
next Gregg game I wander into (hopefully the 16th) I'm angling for both 2/7
bonus and the 'show one' when a pot is won uncontested...'tis the season,
after all :)
********************************************************************************************
GREGG ADDS
Wow, what a lot of good chatter!
I can't wait until the next round on who shows first. My pants are already unzipped.
Yes, their will be a game next Wed. beginning at 1pm.
Best to all, Gregg
******************************************************************************
ED RESPONDS
Sooooooooo, I wanted so badly to be just like my big toe (Stripes reference) bro in law that I found the closest fedora to his and wore it. Played when I normally would have folded and won. Folded when I normally would have played and reduced my losses (learned that lesson from the Dewster). Showed a Blowers bluff on occasion and generally didn't let my hallmark lack of patience get the best of me (this time).
Note to self - Arrive after Dewey to avoid chip and assorted other shrapnel. Just in case I'm breaking out my old kevlar vest from a past life............
Thanks for this wonderful experience Gregg. I was missing the old locker room, ball busting days of my youth. Ah yes, the smell of mildewed rotting socks is all that's missing. :)
**********************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
ED RESPONDS
Sooooooooo, I wanted so badly to be just like my big toe (Stripes reference) bro in law that I found the closest fedora to his and wore it. Played when I normally would have folded and won. Folded when I normally would have played and reduced my losses (learned that lesson from the Dewster). Showed a Blowers bluff on occasion and generally didn't let my hallmark lack of patience get the best of me (this time).
Note to self - Arrive after Dewey to avoid chip and assorted other shrapnel. Just in case I'm breaking out my old kevlar vest from a past life............
Thanks for this wonderful experience Gregg. I was missing the old locker room, ball busting days of my youth. Ah yes, the smell of mildewed rotting socks is all that's missing. :)
**********************************************************************************
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
